Why would anyone vote Labour?
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Original post by soanonymous
Right so you graduate, it automatically makes you middle class? Even if you don't find a job and end up on benefits eventually? Makes sense!
Well if you can take 3+ years out of working pretty much demonstrates you're not working class doesn't it?
And then you suggest someone who is again, not working and on benefits is working class is a bit mental too...
Original post by Quady
Well if you can take 3+ years out of working pretty much demonstrates you're not working class doesn't it?
And then you suggest someone who is again, not working and on benefits is working class is a bit mental too...
And then you suggest someone who is again, not working and on benefits is working class is a bit mental too...
Not sure you know what working/middle/upper class means. Might wanna read up on that!
Original post by Quady
Whats wrong with the citizen income? Its fair, cheap to administer and stops fraud/error.
Do you really think giving money to people that don't need it is fair?
And if you think this will stop fraud you are living in a fantasy land like the rest of those green wackos.
Original post by pickup
I guess people vote for parties that either they or their families have learned to support in the past.
If you think that now you have got a good job, bought your first home you should be supporting a party of aspiration, you may want to vote Conservative as a way of distancing yourself from what you fear most - sinking back into poverty. You may feel that everyone can / should do what you have done and work hard. ( Mrs Thatcher). You may find it hard to understand why everyone doesn't feel the same. You will be angry with those people ( see below) who don't work etc. when your taxes are supporting them.
If you've been through troubled times, lost your job when the industries in your town were all closed down, with no prospect of ever being secure again, you may feel that you should support a party which understands your problems rather than one which you think doesn't.. If when you were in work the only organisation prepared to speak for you when you were ill, sacked, accused of something, was your union, you will tend to support the party which your union supports. You will be paying the political levy to the Labour Party. You have the same fear of poverty as those above and the same feeling of injustice.
Of course, in reality we are all a mixture of the 2 camps. We may have studied hard, worked hard and yet not be able to find a job. We may suddenly need to have unemployment pay. We may have an accident , fall ill and suddenly realise why the sick pay, housing benefit is there.
It doesn't stop us being annoyed with those who we see making little effort. We understand our own situation because we have lived through it. It takes much more imagination to understand another's situation.
'Tout comprendre , c'est tout pardonner.' If we could understand people better we would be able to tackle the problems better. I doubt that all Conservatives are mean and selfish ( Plenty work for charities) or that all Labour supporters are wastrels. ( Plenty slog away at their very important jobs) This is why it is so important to have everyone involved in politics. When we get it wrong it's not because we are wicked people but because we are ignorant. Dickens thought that of the 2 vices - poverty and ignorance , ignorance was the worst by far. The road to Hell being paved with good intentions. We only have to glance at history to be astonished at what was thought OK only relatively recently - 5 year olds working long hours in factories ?
If you think that now you have got a good job, bought your first home you should be supporting a party of aspiration, you may want to vote Conservative as a way of distancing yourself from what you fear most - sinking back into poverty. You may feel that everyone can / should do what you have done and work hard. ( Mrs Thatcher). You may find it hard to understand why everyone doesn't feel the same. You will be angry with those people ( see below) who don't work etc. when your taxes are supporting them.
If you've been through troubled times, lost your job when the industries in your town were all closed down, with no prospect of ever being secure again, you may feel that you should support a party which understands your problems rather than one which you think doesn't.. If when you were in work the only organisation prepared to speak for you when you were ill, sacked, accused of something, was your union, you will tend to support the party which your union supports. You will be paying the political levy to the Labour Party. You have the same fear of poverty as those above and the same feeling of injustice.
Of course, in reality we are all a mixture of the 2 camps. We may have studied hard, worked hard and yet not be able to find a job. We may suddenly need to have unemployment pay. We may have an accident , fall ill and suddenly realise why the sick pay, housing benefit is there.
It doesn't stop us being annoyed with those who we see making little effort. We understand our own situation because we have lived through it. It takes much more imagination to understand another's situation.
'Tout comprendre , c'est tout pardonner.' If we could understand people better we would be able to tackle the problems better. I doubt that all Conservatives are mean and selfish ( Plenty work for charities) or that all Labour supporters are wastrels. ( Plenty slog away at their very important jobs) This is why it is so important to have everyone involved in politics. When we get it wrong it's not because we are wicked people but because we are ignorant. Dickens thought that of the 2 vices - poverty and ignorance , ignorance was the worst by far. The road to Hell being paved with good intentions. We only have to glance at history to be astonished at what was thought OK only relatively recently - 5 year olds working long hours in factories ?
Well said!
Original post by soanonymous
Not sure you know what working/middle/upper class means. Might wanna read up on that!
I'm not sure you do either, since there isn't a single definition.
But from Wikipedia
Working class[edit]
Unskilled and semi-skilled working class[edit]
Traditionally, these people would work as manual labourers. They would typically have left school as soon as legally permissible and not have been able to take part in higher education.[32]
So I don't see how I'm wrong really...
Original post by Quady
I'm not sure you do either, since there isn't a single definition.
But from Wikipedia
Working class[edit]
Unskilled and semi-skilled working class[edit]
Traditionally, these people would work as manual labourers. They would typically have left school as soon as legally permissible and not have been able to take part in higher education.[32]
So I don't see how I'm wrong really...
But from Wikipedia
Working class[edit]
Unskilled and semi-skilled working class[edit]
Traditionally, these people would work as manual labourers. They would typically have left school as soon as legally permissible and not have been able to take part in higher education.[32]
So I don't see how I'm wrong really...
You're saying there's no single definition, yet just gave me a definition that would make you look right. There are plenty of definitions. And you literally picked the most outdated/old fashioned of them all. Congratulations.
Original post by stoltguyboo
Do you really think giving money to people that don't need it is fair?
And if you think this will stop fraud you are living in a fantasy land like the rest of those green wackos.
And if you think this will stop fraud you are living in a fantasy land like the rest of those green wackos.
Universal benefits are just the same as universal healthcare or universal education. State pension should be means tested should it?
It'd be massively harder, could you illustrate an example?
Original post by shiva300
no way, f--k that! this country would be down the plug hole within weeks. I think hard work should be rewarded. if people work their asses off to do well and provide for their families then I think that's great! why should people be deterred from that? why should they be forced to sink down to the level of current dole dossers that do nothing but laze around at home leeching off the tax payer! it wouldn't bd fair at all and it wouldn't be sustainable. the only people it would benefit are people who are too lazy to do something to improve their lives. Of course I do believe the disabled, elderly etc. need more help, and the extremely rich should not be allowed to evade tax! But the Green Party do not offer a viable solution...
Yeah mate you've swallowed the rhetoric, stop reading the Tory tabloids. Benefit claimants are walking miles to food banks and having their benefits stopped for the heinous crime of attending a job interview instead of their sign-on date, or for not attending a meeting they only receive a letter about after that date. This is not job centre incompetence but a concerted effort to stop as many destitute people's benefits as possible - there are quotas and league tables.
In 2012, ten thousand terminally ill and disabled people reassessed under Atos and found fit to work by their unqualified medical assessors died within six months of the decision. The DWP promptly stopped releasing statistics on this. Atos are linked with Unum a private health insurer which was kicked out of America in the mid-2000s for operating what the court called "disability denial factories". We are currently under investigation from the UN, the only country EVER to be investigated for this, for systemic human rights violations on the disabled.
On workers' rights we have seen cuts in legal aid that mean if your employer is breaking the law, for example forcing you to work long hours, in dangerous conditions, withholding payment or paying under the minimum wage you have to have £2,500 spare to even take them to court. Zero hour contracts make it impossible to plan one's finances as you don't know how much you will be getting from week to week and employers can use the spectre of cutting hours to ensure slavish acquiescence from employees. These are the "jobs" behind the Tories' supposed job creation miracle. They would make everyone into slaves and then crow that we had full employment.
On that note,IDS' mandatory workfare scheme involves paying a private employment agency bungs to place jobseekers to work for free in for profit companies, giving them free labour, giving the agency their bung, and taking a job opening away that could have been done by a person for an actual wage. I have a friend traumatised from his time spent doing unpaid labour for the Tory slavers. The scheme was found unlawful by the supreme court in 2013 due to the fact that it was meant to allow people to refuse the scheme, but the Tories rode roughshod over the rule of law, enacting RETROSPECTIVE LEGISLATION like some tinpot third world banana republic to steal the paltry few million in benefita back off the complainants.
If only this punitive, bullying, crusading attitude were applied to the tax dodgers who fund the Tories rather than to the poor and desperate of the British people.
So if you want to engage with politics, go read the proper press that actually criticises the government's record, not the Tory propaganda rags.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by soanonymous
You're saying there's no single definition, yet just gave me a definition that would make you look right. There are plenty of definitions. And you literally picked the most outdated/old fashioned of them all. Congratulations.
I said it made me look 'not wrong'.
Whats yours?
Original post by scrotgrot
Yeah mate you've swallowed the rhetoric, stop reading the Tory tabloids. Benefit claimants are walking miles to food banks and having their benefits stopped for the heinous crime of attending a job interview instead of their sign-on date, or for not attending a meeting they only receive a letter about after that date. This is not job centre incompetence but a concerted effort to stop as many destitute people's benefits as possible - there are quotas and league tables.
In 2012, ten thousand terminally ill and disabled people reassessed under Atos and found fit to work by their unqualified medical assessors died within six months of the decision. The DWP promptly stopped releasing statistics on this. Atos are linked with Unum a private health insurer which was kicked out of America in the mid-2000s for operating what the court called "disability denial factories".
If only the same punitive attitude were applied to the tax dodgers who fund the Tories.
Read the proper press, not the Tory propaganda rags.
In 2012, ten thousand terminally ill and disabled people reassessed under Atos and found fit to work by their unqualified medical assessors died within six months of the decision. The DWP promptly stopped releasing statistics on this. Atos are linked with Unum a private health insurer which was kicked out of America in the mid-2000s for operating what the court called "disability denial factories".
If only the same punitive attitude were applied to the tax dodgers who fund the Tories.
Read the proper press, not the Tory propaganda rags.
Which party first hired ATOS to do medical assessments for DWP?
Oh wait...
Original post by Quady
Which party first hired ATOS to do medical assessments for DWP?
Oh wait...
Oh wait...
Yes, Labour are also just as disgusting about this. So why did the Tories not put an end to the programme?
Original post by stoltguyboo
Do you really think giving money to people that don't need it is fair?
And if you think this will stop fraud you are living in a fantasy land like the rest of those green wackos.
And if you think this will stop fraud you are living in a fantasy land like the rest of those green wackos.
If giving money to people who don't need it is unfair, why have successive governments spent the past thirty years selling public services off cheap to the rich, designing tax loopholes so they get money they don't need, pumping up the housing market for foreign investment and presiding over the quickest and most ruthless transfer of wealth from the poor to the global elite probably since the days of William the Conqueror?
Original post by scrotgrot
Yes, Labour are also just as disgusting about this. So why did the Tories not put an end to the programme?
Because they are both as bad as each other. Labour won't be stopping anything if they get in.
Original post by Quady
Because they are both as bad as each other. Labour won't be stopping anything if they get in.
Labour are not quite as bad overall though. Of the two, it's got to be Labour. Nobody else has a chance of getting anywhere near power obviously. I want Labour tempered and cowed, dragged left by the SNP (I know they are not really left, but I think they will have to do lefty things), with a tiny minority to keep them looking over their shoulders.
It's quite amazing how out of touch people are on this forum with the real world. Of about the 10 million households that receive benefits, roughly HALF of them are working. People's idea of those who are on benefits is completely wrong - these people are not obese, sitting at home and drinking, they are struggling to provide.
The major focus of these parties should be on the disgustingly wealthy companies that somehow are still able to avoid taxation in this company, yet are giants in their sectors, be it technology, catering etc. In addition to this, George Osborne has actually opposed mansion tax while cutting tax credits which make pay for millions of striving families.
Cutting back on benefits in certain areas will not make a drastic difference on the deficit. The NHS is a terrible state anyway and care for the elderly in most places is verging on inhumane. Stop banging on about benefits and realise that these help a lot of people from falling into poverty.
The Tory party are always finding ways to protect the rich and lash out the poor and I completely stand by that. There are other ways to cut the deficit, improve the NHS help the poor and the Tory Government is not one of them.
The major focus of these parties should be on the disgustingly wealthy companies that somehow are still able to avoid taxation in this company, yet are giants in their sectors, be it technology, catering etc. In addition to this, George Osborne has actually opposed mansion tax while cutting tax credits which make pay for millions of striving families.
Cutting back on benefits in certain areas will not make a drastic difference on the deficit. The NHS is a terrible state anyway and care for the elderly in most places is verging on inhumane. Stop banging on about benefits and realise that these help a lot of people from falling into poverty.
The Tory party are always finding ways to protect the rich and lash out the poor and I completely stand by that. There are other ways to cut the deficit, improve the NHS help the poor and the Tory Government is not one of them.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by shiva300
Okay I'm deadly serious, it really baffles me. The Tories are planning to reduce taxes so people earning under £12,500 a year don't have to pay any and they're reducing taxes in general. Labour are planning to increase taxes and also increase benefits, encouraging the "something for nothing" culture that half of Britain sunk into when they were last in power. The conservatives are planning to increase apprenticeships and reward those who are hard working, decreasing unemployment of 18-21 year olds (which increased massively while labour were in power).
Oh and to top it off, Labour are planning to tax inheritance money, that's right, they're taking money from family members of people who have died...
In the past, yes, the conservatives have been less supportive of the poor but if you actually research them properly you'll see that they're realistically the only ones who can save Britain's economy...
And lets not forget that it was the Labour government that started the Iraq war, and allowed scandals such as the Rotherham child abuse to pass them by...
Oh and to top it off, Labour are planning to tax inheritance money, that's right, they're taking money from family members of people who have died...
In the past, yes, the conservatives have been less supportive of the poor but if you actually research them properly you'll see that they're realistically the only ones who can save Britain's economy...
And lets not forget that it was the Labour government that started the Iraq war, and allowed scandals such as the Rotherham child abuse to pass them by...
There are lots of reasons to vote Labour - they'll remove the bedroom tax, actually fund the NHS, undo the Gove education mess, introduce votes at 16 and more. While I disagree with some of their past decisions, particularly the war, their history has been generally great, including introducing the NHS. The coalition hasn't been great with tuition fee rises and bedroom tax, and I wonder if the 'long term economic plan' will still be 'long term' for the 2020 election if the Conservatives re-gain power. Labour is the way to go for the next election.
Original post by doctorwhofan98
The coalition hasn't been great with tuition fee rises
And yet Labour won't undo that, nor their two previous major fee rises.
Original post by Quady
It is the student room...
If you're a graduate you're not working class, working class background depending on your circumstances, you're middle class.
If you're a graduate you're not working class, working class background depending on your circumstances, you're middle class.
I remember hearing many times even going back 10 years or more when I first started college that if you were a student you were automatically middle class even if you cant put food on the table whilst on course(despite not splashing the cash)
Original post by Quady
And yet Labour won't undo that, nor their two previous major fee rises.
I know, but no other party is pledging cutting tuition fees either. Labour is still, in my opinion, far better than a potential Conservative-UKIP-Liberal Democrat coalition.
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