Should girls work or wash dishes?

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Good for you.

Whether the unwillingness is down to being socialised that way or not doesn't matter.

I just said I'd be willing to do the job. The job itself is great. I would just be writing off at least ten years of pay because I'd stop being able to do that job, and that is a problem for me. As it is for many, many men. The difference is that men are presented with construction as an option far more than women are. How you can then put down statistics showing more men in construction as down to women being less willing to do those jobs is beyond me.

Reply 141

A-d-S10

The rise of feminism, ie the so called rise of equal opportunity, is convenient in the sense that the government can tax the other half of the population. And when you take in to consideration a household where you have both parents working full time, you create even more tax revenue when parents pay inflated childcare costs to look after your children. From a tax perspective, it certainly makes sense to have as many people as possible working to pay off the debt in the economy.

However, if you have both parents working, it certainly does raise the question of how your children are being raised. Personal opinion on this, is that if you have a child, that should take priority particularly if you have a partner earning enough during the child's formative years. I don't think money can be a substitute for proper parenting, and when you consider the rising incidence of mental illness , it should be at the center of everyone's attention.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 142

username1258398

Original post by Ronove

Great, but we're talking about averages so your personal tastes don't really matter. As for the "...many, many men...", I'd like some numbers to back that up.

Original post by Ronove

The difference is that men are presented with construction as an option far more than women are. How you can then put down statistics showing more men in construction as down to women being less willing to do those jobs is beyond me.

Everyone knows the construction industry exists, it's not like it's a secret. If a woman wants to go into construction, there's nothing stopping her. Obviously, there are stereotypes, but if you're so affected by them that they're impacting your career choices then quite frankly you're a bit thick.

Let's also note that this isn't specific to construction. Plenty of industries (in which the jobs don't "force you to retire 10 years early") have a very uneven gender split.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 143

A-d-S10

Original post by StrangeBanana

Great, but we're talking about averages so your personal tastes don't really matter. As for the "...many, many men...", I'd like some numbers to back that up.

Everyone knows the construction industry exists, it's not like it's a secret. If a woman wants to go into construction, there's nothing stopping her. Obviously, there are stereotypes, but if you're so affected by them that they're impacting your career choices then quite frankly you're a bit thick.

Let's also note that this isn't specific to construction. Plenty of industries (in which the jobs don't "force you to retire 10 years early") have a very uneven gender split.

I very much agree with you on this point, I think the only thing stopping women liberating themselves, is themselves quite frankly. Feminism is about women empowering themselves, men can not do it for them.

Reply 144

Augvstus

Original post by zigglr

You got it the wrong way round

No, I didn't.

Reply 145

somethingbeautiful

Original post by StrangeBanana

Aaaaaaaaaand you're finished

You didn't prove @Reue wrong though. None of those stats tell you what someone is or is not willing to do and it doesn't tell you what they've done in the past.

FYI I'm female and although I currently work in the first job type on that chart with 78.3% total female workers, my previous job (which I held for much longer) was in the 21.9% total female workers sector on that chart. Most people don't have the luxury of choice when it comes to employment - they take what they can get. I took what I could get with my previous job and there were other women in the company (3 others compared to ~100 men overall). It wasn't a huge surprise that we were in the minority because it was very physical work and we were, fitness wise, very much above average adult females (i.e stronger than the average healthy woman). That was what made us capable in that job - we were, fitness wise, far superior to the average healthy 18-35 year old woman but compared to a regular man (i.e. a man who is reasonably fit and healthy but no where near above average) we were equal.

An average female (i.e. not overweight and eats a mix of healthy/junk food and barely exercises each week) could not have coped with that job whereas the average male (i.e. not overweight and eats a mix of junk/healthy food and barely exercises each week) could have. Both genders were expected to carry the same weight of product which was minimum 40Kg per shift + 15Kg of equipment and expected to lift 16Kgs on multiple occasions throughout the shift. In reality it was usually above 40kgs of product and there were multiple loads (i.e. 2X40Kg load or 40Kg load + 20Kg load). Plus we had to cover, on average, 12 miles a day on foot come rain or shine.

After a year of that job I was at my physical peak and I can tell you that if you picked a random healthy and moderately fit woman off the street and asked her to complete one 10 hour shift of mine she would not have got half way through it - fact. Even I was physically exhausted most days and my fitness level was the best it's ever been. A moderately fit healthy man could have done it - it wouldn't be easy, but they'd complete it.

So when people ask why women don't do certain work - well if it's physical then most women (i.e an average physically fit healthy adult female) won't be up to par compared to most men (i.e an average physically fit healthy adult male). I say that as a female - it's just a fact. But that doesn't mean that women don't want to do those jobs and won't do them under any circumstances. But the fact is, most women will be at a physical disadvantage and will have to push themselves a lot more than most men in physical jobs - the manager won't say ''oh, well since you're weaker, you can just lift 30Kg instead of 40kg''. I was hitting faster time targets for completion than around 90% of my male colleagues (can you guess the line of work yet?!) and taking out extra loads per day (overtime) so I was doing it faster and lifting more than most men in my workplace but I was pushing myself to the limits of my physical capabilities to achieve that and to achieve the same as the top 10% of men. You might wonder why I did that - couple of reasons: 1. I was on a zero hour contract - the better I did the job the more likely I was to get more shifts 2. We got bonuses for beating or meeting our personal time targets which were dependent on weight of product per shift and expected distance to cover - not on personal stats, I large portion of my wages came from those bonuses.

So looking at it sensibly, the average woman would have to work harder than the average man in those physical jobs to achieve the same pay/bonuses so it makes more sense for them to be in a role where they can perform as equally as a man but without exerting themselves a lot more. So women will obviously play to the strengths that they have which aren't physical and depending on their interests they go into roles which need those strengths (teaching/nursing/admin/retail/singer/astronaut - whatever). Which is exactly what I've done now. It's not about being 'unwilling' to do certain work - I'd be quite willing to go back to manual labor if I lost my current job, I wouldn't be pleased but I'd do it. But would I choose it regardless? No because I would always be playing catch-up with the men.

That is something that any woman with half a brain knows to be true.

Original post by Reue

Why would they when they're already employed as a teacher? What an odd example :s

Perhaps: 'would an average female be willing to go into mining if there were no other employment opportunities avaliable?'

In which case are you trying to say a majority won't? Would they rather starve?

This.

Reply 146

username1258398

Original post by somethingbeautiful

So when people ask why women don't do certain work - well if it's physical then most women (i.e an average physically fit healthy adult female) won't be up to par compared to most men (i.e an average physically fit healthy adult male). I say that as a female - it's just a fact.

Here is the claim Reue took issue with, starting this "debate":

Original post by StrangeBanana

There are many jobs that women can't (or won't) feasibly do

Reply 147

Proxenus

Hushhhh

you don't even want children :colonhash:

Reply 148

zigglr

Original post by Augvstus

No, I didn't.

Most statistics will agree, you did. The Husband is usually the one earning the salary whilst the wife is usually the one working at home in the kitchen

Reply 149

Augvstus

Original post by zigglr

Most statistics will agree, you did. The Husband is usually the one earning the salary whilst the wife is usually the one working at home in the kitchen