Depression - educate me.
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Original post by AbsoluteAnarchy
I'm very very sorry. I'll add it right away... We're cool though, right?
Ha yeah it's the Internet. Misunderstandings are what it does best :-) X
Original post by TheCitizenAct
When someone breaks their leg the symptoms of that leg break exist in the physical realm. Symptoms of depression are subjective and in any given context, dependent upon omission, accentuation or presentation, could be identified in anyone. The diagnostic tools are meek at best. A bit like selling a house, all it requires is an effective presentation.
You made an enlightening post and a worthwhile contribution to the discussion earlier. However, what I didn't read was any conceptualisation of 'normality.'
A prolonged period of sadness, a 'mood'; why is this a disorder? Why is anyone in a position to determine what is and is not acceptable human behaviour (outside of the confines of inflicting bodily harm on another)? Perhaps it's a logical and accurate biological response to reality? Why is happiness in the face of sadness deemed 'not depressed'? Surely that's more of a disorder than prolonged sadness in the face of sadness?
You made an enlightening post and a worthwhile contribution to the discussion earlier. However, what I didn't read was any conceptualisation of 'normality.'
A prolonged period of sadness, a 'mood'; why is this a disorder? Why is anyone in a position to determine what is and is not acceptable human behaviour (outside of the confines of inflicting bodily harm on another)? Perhaps it's a logical and accurate biological response to reality? Why is happiness in the face of sadness deemed 'not depressed'? Surely that's more of a disorder than prolonged sadness in the face of sadness?
Just because you cannot see something right in front of you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And yes, it is subjective. The entire experience a person has of living is subjective - no two experiences are the same, not even for twins. That's why peoples' experience vary for a variety of different reasons (personality, experiences, mood, perception, etc.) it doesn't mean it's any less real compared to a broken leg. Or cancer, or any physical health problem for that matter.
Normality is dependent on the person mood wise (you can just have a happy temperament anyway and you can also have an anxious one, etc.), but it also means that you should be able to look after yourself, able to adjust to different situations and environments effectively, and be able to accurately perceive reality (as well as a few other things).
Mental ill health is seen as different from the way the person would otherwise interact with the world and the situations they find themselves in. For example, they may have been a relatively happy, sociable person before the depression took a hold of them - therefore the person afflicted with the depression may feel that they are not themselves, that something is wrong. When you feel something is wrong with your health (physical or mental), you seek help because you don't want to feel like **** all the time, you want to be well. Also, with depression, you have such a blunted affect that nothing can make you happy when you're deep in it. Having a restricted range of affect is not normal. You should be able to feel a range of emotions, this is often not possible with mood disorders. This indicates that something is not right, and one of the main symptoms people with depression describe when they seek help.
The diagnosis of depression includes a note about how it has to impact the person's life negatively (most mental health diagnoses include this same note). Often those with depression have trouble looking after themselves, have an excessively negative view of themselves and the world and so they cannot adapt effectively. This is problematic and as a result people with the disorder need help to get back to a place where they're able to function better in society.
I don't think you quite understand the distinction between mood disorders and emotions. Mood disorders like depression are generally not due to any particular emotion or situation (hence why many people "don't know" why they're depressed). The mood is present regardless of the situation the person happens to be in (this is why people who seem to "have it all," (money, cars, family, etc.) can still be depressed). Mood disorders are thought to be due to an imbalance in the brain with its neurotransmitters (specifically serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine if I remember correctly), so moods do have a biological basis researchers just haven't pinpointed all the mechanisms yet.
Emotions are, as I said before, fleeting and usually have a reason - this is why emotions are usually logical responses to reality (e.g. you're at a wedding, you may feel happy for the bride and groom, conversely you may feel sad at a funeral) - but they don't invade other aspects as your life nearly as much as your overall mood does. Mood disorders like depression generally aren't because of any specific situation and they impact the person's life negatively as they're unable to engage with the world in an effective way (likely due to the fact that they have a blunted affect). This is why it's a disorder, it's not normal to have an excessively low mood for a long time with no change, same as having an excessively high mood for an extended period of time (mania) is also seen as a disorder of mood. Things like depression can also impact your physical health (some of the symptoms of depression are excessive tiredness and chronic pain).
Moods shouldn't be at the extreme ends of the scale, and they should be able to vary over time. You shouldn't be restricted with what you can/can't feel. You should be able to function within society appropriately. You should be able to look after yourself and keep yourself safe without the help of other people. When you're ill with a mood disorder tasks like these are often extremely hard, sometimes impossible. That is why it is a disorder.
[QUOTE=a noble chance;59883115]You said:
'What I can tell you is that a lot of people say they have it because they want sympathy and attention. People that make false claims really annoy me; it's insulting to those who are actually having trouble.
If you're in a dark place, you tend to keep it to yourself. You don't want to cause a fuss so you bottle it up.
You never broadcast it.'
There are plenty of people - such as the man in my avatar - who have struggled with depression and talked about their condition and sought help. It doesn't help in removing stigma by implying that those who have the courage and good sense to ask for help and who are generally open about it are frauds on the basis that they are 'broadcasting it' - which is what Stephen Fry has literally been doing for years - and aren't 'bottling it up'.
My apologies; I worded things poorly.
Reading it back, it sounds like I'm saying people with depression should "bottle it up".
I meant to say that we tend to do so, not that we should.
I've added this to my first post and I'm sincerely sorry for my mistake.
'What I can tell you is that a lot of people say they have it because they want sympathy and attention. People that make false claims really annoy me; it's insulting to those who are actually having trouble.
If you're in a dark place, you tend to keep it to yourself. You don't want to cause a fuss so you bottle it up.
You never broadcast it.'
There are plenty of people - such as the man in my avatar - who have struggled with depression and talked about their condition and sought help. It doesn't help in removing stigma by implying that those who have the courage and good sense to ask for help and who are generally open about it are frauds on the basis that they are 'broadcasting it' - which is what Stephen Fry has literally been doing for years - and aren't 'bottling it up'.
My apologies; I worded things poorly.
Reading it back, it sounds like I'm saying people with depression should "bottle it up".
I meant to say that we tend to do so, not that we should.
I've added this to my first post and I'm sincerely sorry for my mistake.
Original post by blue n white army
That's one of the difference i see between actual depression and sadness. Actual depression - won't leave the house, shuts himself off from people and doesn't actual admit to being depressed. Whereas i know of people where their "depression" will flair up for the day "sorry can't make it to XYZ- depressed"
You're wrong in thinking depression necessarily means not wanting to leave the house. When I was depressed I never did anything but socialise, because when I was alone I would just cry and cry and cry. Instead I spent my entire time drinking and going out. Then I'd lie in bed all morning crying. Then I'd do it again...
People thought I was great fun.
Original post by a noble chance
You said:
'What I can tell you is that a lot of people say they have it because they want sympathy and attention. People that make false claims really annoy me; it's insulting to those who are actually having trouble.
If you're in a dark place, you tend to keep it to yourself. You don't want to cause a fuss so you bottle it up.
You never broadcast it.'
There are plenty of people - such as the man in my avatar - who have struggled with depression and talked about their condition and sought help. It doesn't help in removing stigma by implying that those who have the courage and good sense to ask for help and who are generally open about it are frauds on the basis that they are 'broadcasting it' - which is what Stephen Fry has literally been doing for years - and aren't 'bottling it up'.
'What I can tell you is that a lot of people say they have it because they want sympathy and attention. People that make false claims really annoy me; it's insulting to those who are actually having trouble.
If you're in a dark place, you tend to keep it to yourself. You don't want to cause a fuss so you bottle it up.
You never broadcast it.'
There are plenty of people - such as the man in my avatar - who have struggled with depression and talked about their condition and sought help. It doesn't help in removing stigma by implying that those who have the courage and good sense to ask for help and who are generally open about it are frauds on the basis that they are 'broadcasting it' - which is what Stephen Fry has literally been doing for years - and aren't 'bottling it up'.
Those people you have mentioned have broadcasted their feelings in order to help those who are also suffering and raise awareness. What's my excuse for broadcasting my feelings?
Original post by TheCitizenAct
It's a label given to you by another; depression, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. You aren't depressed until someone tells you you're depressed. What do they know? They don't. They never will. Depression, like every other label in existence, is just yet another label people like to foist onto other people to try and make sense of the world around them; the world doesn't make sense and it never will.
I agree. They give you a questionnaire, tot up some scores and, voila! you have severe depression here are some pills have a nice day. It's ridiculous. But most people (hopefully most) don't go for the label and instead go to seek further help like counselling.
Original post by TheCitizenAct
Which is all predicated on in-group and out-group mechanics, in as much as certain emotions are permissible and of benefit, whereas other emotions are demonised and deemed surplus to requirements.
We are working within the confines of 'good' and 'bad', in as much as 'sadness' is a negative trait, and 'happiness' is a positive trait. Yet, objectively, many great outcomes emanate from sadness. Mozart, for example. Some of the world's great works of art; some of the world's greatest principles, ideas and ideologies. In these contexts, a 'prolonged period of sadness' was beneficial, not detrimental.
It frustrates me that 'sadness', much like self-interest, is treated as surplus to requirements, or tantamount to a 'disorder', when it's often a rational biological response to an individual's external environment. Life isn't about maximising happiness, it's about minimising misery - medication seems like the ultimate cop out in the pursuit of an imagined, borderline pathological, happiness.
All of which, in my opinion, is subjective. Diagnostically, a clinician will observe for an expression of these symptoms, but, in reality, anyone could walk in off the street and present these symptoms as their reality, and gain access to medication.
If I enter into a 'prolonged period of sadness', what is to suggest that isn't a rational response to my external environment? Surely, if it's a rational response, it's not a disorder?
If this is to be categorised as a 'disorder', surely its polar opposite, a prolonged period of happiness, must be, likewise, a disorder?
We are working within the confines of 'good' and 'bad', in as much as 'sadness' is a negative trait, and 'happiness' is a positive trait. Yet, objectively, many great outcomes emanate from sadness. Mozart, for example. Some of the world's great works of art; some of the world's greatest principles, ideas and ideologies. In these contexts, a 'prolonged period of sadness' was beneficial, not detrimental.
It frustrates me that 'sadness', much like self-interest, is treated as surplus to requirements, or tantamount to a 'disorder', when it's often a rational biological response to an individual's external environment. Life isn't about maximising happiness, it's about minimising misery - medication seems like the ultimate cop out in the pursuit of an imagined, borderline pathological, happiness.
All of which, in my opinion, is subjective. Diagnostically, a clinician will observe for an expression of these symptoms, but, in reality, anyone could walk in off the street and present these symptoms as their reality, and gain access to medication.
If I enter into a 'prolonged period of sadness', what is to suggest that isn't a rational response to my external environment? Surely, if it's a rational response, it's not a disorder?
If this is to be categorised as a 'disorder', surely its polar opposite, a prolonged period of happiness, must be, likewise, a disorder?
I sort of understand the basis for your beliefs.
Unhappiness is a normal state of mind, and even when in excess can provide a powerful force in some way - be it increasing the relative significance of moments of happiness or be it in productiveness - can result in creativity, or superhuman motivation when overcoming adversity or achieve (colloquially 'filling a hole'
.But there is natural unhappiness which is non-pathological and certainly should never be medicated, and biologically pathological unhappiness. Such an unhappiness is not usually psychogenic (caused by environment - though is involved, as always, in a complex interplay with everything); but rather of chemical functioning which simply just isn't working correctly.
We are essentially a machine - our brain a hundred trillion connections (a a vast many of those just to get us to move fluidly in our complex behaviors, and process visual and auditory information). Often our biology messes up in some way, as in any other disease you can physically see - the only difference is that people who haven't been taught about the brain tend to think that, for some reason, the brain is immune to biological failings.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by chantalc
**** off, you have no ****ing idea what you are talking about. He thinks that nothing will get better for him and therefore reckoned he'd be better off dead. You have no ****ing right to tell me I'm wrong for not wanting him to ****ing kill himself because he sees it as the only way to stop hurting.
He wants himself dead so he can stop hurting and you want him dead too for that reason?
Original post by m3m
He wants himself dead so he can stop hurting and you want him dead too for that reason?
When did I say I wanted him dead too...
Original post by OU Student
You haven't got a clue, do you?
Hahaha don't bother with that guy, I stopped reading his comments after reading a few of the things he said and trying to make sense of them.
Original post by TheCitizenAct
Not within the conventional process of giving a diagnosis of depression though, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this merely involves sitting with a Doctor, conveying your symptoms, and that Doctor making a very subjective observation of your symptoms.
I would dispute the notion that sadness, or prolonged sadness, isn't functional. See my post above. It has been pathologised (a bit like masculinity) by those with an interest in pathologising it, but that doesn't mean it's lacking in function. Altruism is coveted as an act of human kindness, however all throughout history the worst acts imaginable have been perpetrated upon appeals to altruism - I observe what I would deem to be 'pathological altruism' on a daily basis.
We cannot, in my view, confine human nature to 'good' and 'bad', functional or not.
I would dispute the notion that sadness, or prolonged sadness, isn't functional. See my post above. It has been pathologised (a bit like masculinity) by those with an interest in pathologising it, but that doesn't mean it's lacking in function. Altruism is coveted as an act of human kindness, however all throughout history the worst acts imaginable have been perpetrated upon appeals to altruism - I observe what I would deem to be 'pathological altruism' on a daily basis.
We cannot, in my view, confine human nature to 'good' and 'bad', functional or not.
Not conventionally, no. But that is just because there is no need to. Again, I understand your point in that you think it is arbitrary, but you can clearly tell when someone is depressed - and this is very distinct to say, just feeling **** for a short period of time. The clinician tends to try and seek out the cause.
Someone close to me for instance has an anxiety disorder. This is just a brain, rather than a 'mind' problem (though probably both, developmentally). But basically through using SSRI medication (increases serotonin brain levels globally in cortex), the person has less severe responses to stress and can function - rather than having panic attacks.
The thing with altruism is that it would be essentially in the realm of 'personality disorders' if was deemed pathological. That would actually be a fair argument to make - some people express detrimental behaviors. But altruism very rarely goes to the extent of being grossly detrimental to the individual - and will usually result in some dividends - for instance, increased social support in return etc. But this line probably distracts from the discussion at hand.
We can say things are functional or not. It is not relative to society, but rather to the individual - an individual can't function within their own life if they have depression.
If I followed your reasoning with saying that depression is essentially a functional and non-pathological part of the human condition - I could probably say the same about cancer.
It only becomes a problem if it affects your daily life
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Original post by zyzzyspirit
Know this feeling all too well. I'm lonely and depressed without Marian. Life seems worthless not being beside her.
... What the hell.Original post by a noble chance
'Broadcast' was used pejoratively in that context to refer to normal communication, and communicating openly about mental illness is not just positive for one's own emotional well-being, it encourages others to be open about theirs as well and helps to increase awareness and understanding of mental illness in the general population.
Then I misinterpreted. You talk like being open will help anyone and everyone.. That's not the case. I'd personally hate for depression to be part of my identity, and the fewer that knew the better.
Original post by Jooooshy
Then I misinterpreted. You talk like being open will help anyone and everyone.. That's not the case. I'd personally hate for depression to be part of my identity, and the fewer that knew the better.
You can feel like that is you want but depression IS part of my identity (as are my other mental health diagnoses). My mental illnesses have shaped who I am, they affect every part of my life. I don't want people to only see my illnesses because there is more to one person than any one identity. I can be simultaneously mentally ill, queer, an archer, a volunteer, a crafter, obsessed with clothes, a geek, etc. without any of those things being the only thing that is important. There IS more to me than mental illness, but mental illness is part of me.
Original post by Failingstudent98
Manic depressive and clinical depression are different. Basically if your manic depressive you will suffer periods of clinical depression (the things people commonly associate with it, so loss of appetite, bad mood, not wanting to go out, not caring for ones self etc) but he will also have mania (rapid thoughts/speech, over excited, overly happy, risky behaviours etc)
^ at least that's what I understand of it (my friend has manic depression)
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^ at least that's what I understand of it (my friend has manic depression)
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Oh yeah, I do understand that. It was just that episode I mentioned didn't really make sense to me in the context of it apparently being depression at that point.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
You can feel like that is you want but depression IS part of my identity (as are my other mental health diagnoses). My mental illnesses have shaped who I am, they affect every part of my life. I don't want people to only see my illnesses because there is more to one person than any one identity. I can be simultaneously mentally ill, queer, an archer, a volunteer, a crafter, obsessed with clothes, a geek, etc. without any of those things being the only thing that is important. There IS more to me than mental illness, but mental illness is part of me.
Sorry, I didn't exactly mean it the way you have interpreted it (my fault). I don't expect anybody to go through depression unscathed, but I'd hate for people to see me and immediately think of my depression. I guess the difference between us is highlighted by this quote:
I don't want people to only see my illnesses because there is more to one person than any one identity.
I'm far too cynical to trust anybody to look past my illness and treat me as though I am normal. Being perceived as baggage by friends that I've had since childhood is too frightening a thought. I just prefer my relationships as they are and to tell them and jeopardise them would be another win for depression in my eyes.
Original post by redferry
You're wrong in thinking depression necessarily means not wanting to leave the house. When I was depressed I never did anything but socialise, because when I was alone I would just cry and cry and cry. Instead I spent my entire time drinking and going out. Then I'd lie in bed all morning crying. Then I'd do it again...
People thought I was great fun.
People thought I was great fun.
You're like the opposite version of me.
Depression is not all the name symptoms same experiences every one is different.
Right now I am choosing not to go into town because I absolutely hate feeling **** seeing things I cannot have at the moment and there's absolutely nothing for me to do in town. So really I can't be bothered but when I am at home and I am on my laptop I feel safe in control and plus I don't have to face lifts at home.
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Right now I am choosing not to go into town because I absolutely hate feeling **** seeing things I cannot have at the moment and there's absolutely nothing for me to do in town. So really I can't be bothered but when I am at home and I am on my laptop I feel safe in control and plus I don't have to face lifts at home.
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Original post by TheCitizenAct
It's a label. Like all labels, it usually ends up defining you, rather than the other way around. As soon as someone tells you 'you are depressed' you suddenly have a label under which to categorise all of your behaviours, all of your misgivings and all of your failures.
It's a label given to you by another; depression, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. You aren't depressed until someone tells you you're depressed. What do they know? They don't. They never will. Depression, like every other label in existence, is just yet another label people like to foist onto other people to try and make sense of the world around them; the world doesn't make sense and it never will.
Don't want to go for that job? It's OK, you're depressed. Don't want to go to work? It's OK, you're depressed. Don't want to go outside? It's OK, you're depressed. Want to talk to your partner like they're a piece of ****? It's OK, you're depressed.
It's a label given to you by another; depression, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. You aren't depressed until someone tells you you're depressed. What do they know? They don't. They never will. Depression, like every other label in existence, is just yet another label people like to foist onto other people to try and make sense of the world around them; the world doesn't make sense and it never will.
Don't want to go for that job? It's OK, you're depressed. Don't want to go to work? It's OK, you're depressed. Don't want to go outside? It's OK, you're depressed. Want to talk to your partner like they're a piece of ****? It's OK, you're depressed.
This figures.
I'm sure progressives are some how to blame.
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