How would a outright burqa and face veil ban go down in England?
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I mean you cannot go into a bank wearing a biker helmet but a headscarf is fine
Original post by yasminkattan
Please explain to me how the root of the niqab is oppression. Any historical evidence? This is merely an opinion.
Honestly I don't care who it intimidates. Another person's irrational fear of the niqab isn't a reason to not wear it, or to ban women completely from wearing it. I know at least 9 women who wear the niqab - 5 started wearing it long before getting married, at a very young age, and 4 of them started wearing it as a result of becoming more religious, eventually convincing their "oppressive" husbands that it's the way forward. Some of their friends actually started avoiding them for this reason, because apparently most people associate it with extremism nowadays. Just because a few women you've met have apparently been forced into it means nothing. It is their own individual situation, it doesn't apply to the entire Muslim population.
Well, actually, the reason wouldn't be that "the Prophet's wives did that", the reason would be the fact that it's allowed in Islam and you or other Muslims being against it doesn't change that. I find it so hypocritical how people claim to follow a religion yet completely reject or choose to ignore parts of it. You don't shape Islam to suit your desires or "Western" outlook on life. Yes you are obliged to follow this "600 year-old lifestyle" (try 1400) if it is your religion.
The Hadith I'm talking about isn't false and is graded as Sahih, therefore it is reliable. If as a Muslim you consider Hadith to be unreliable then, well, I don't know what to say to that.
I feel I have a lot more liberty, as you say, as a "non-liberal" (lol) Muslim woman. What's so liberating about showing your breasts on the cover of magazines? Pretty much everything Western women dedicate their lives to nowadays is done for the attention of men, whether they realise it or not, and that to me is the most oppressive culture.
Honestly I don't care who it intimidates. Another person's irrational fear of the niqab isn't a reason to not wear it, or to ban women completely from wearing it. I know at least 9 women who wear the niqab - 5 started wearing it long before getting married, at a very young age, and 4 of them started wearing it as a result of becoming more religious, eventually convincing their "oppressive" husbands that it's the way forward. Some of their friends actually started avoiding them for this reason, because apparently most people associate it with extremism nowadays. Just because a few women you've met have apparently been forced into it means nothing. It is their own individual situation, it doesn't apply to the entire Muslim population.
Well, actually, the reason wouldn't be that "the Prophet's wives did that", the reason would be the fact that it's allowed in Islam and you or other Muslims being against it doesn't change that. I find it so hypocritical how people claim to follow a religion yet completely reject or choose to ignore parts of it. You don't shape Islam to suit your desires or "Western" outlook on life. Yes you are obliged to follow this "600 year-old lifestyle" (try 1400) if it is your religion.
The Hadith I'm talking about isn't false and is graded as Sahih, therefore it is reliable. If as a Muslim you consider Hadith to be unreliable then, well, I don't know what to say to that.
I feel I have a lot more liberty, as you say, as a "non-liberal" (lol) Muslim woman. What's so liberating about showing your breasts on the cover of magazines? Pretty much everything Western women dedicate their lives to nowadays is done for the attention of men, whether they realise it or not, and that to me is the most oppressive culture.
Well said mashallah, I almost feel sorry for some muslim's in todays society, this immense need to be accepted and to integrate is to such a degree that they feel the need to follow kuffar and dislike their own religion, all to be accepted by mere humans. It's sad, but we should remember that the prophet (swt) said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." That including some aspects of dressing.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Josb
Well, you gave the examples yourself.
I didn't actually give any legitimate examples. I don't view the ban on nudity as legitimate (i.e. justifiable) and, as I said, I can't think of any others that apply across the board in all public spaces.
Because our culture has decided that being fully concealed is an insult to life in society.
Who has decided that? I'm part of our culture and I certainly haven't. And as I mentioned later in my post, there are several situations in which it seems perfectly acceptable to be almost fully concealed. In the cold, for example. So I'm afraid I don't think this is true!
I don't remember the last time I saw someone wearing a balaclava, whilst I saw perhaps 50 burqas in the last month.
I've seen about three burkas in my entire life! And I've certainly seen a good deal more balaclavas, face masks etc.
The law wouldn't specifically target burqas, but simply says that it's illegal to conceal one's face in the public - as the French law says. In a snowstorm, the law wouldn't apply.
But what's the justification for such a law? Is there the slightest bit of convincing evidence that it would serve any purpose?
Original post by Moonstruck16
So what is your view on the number of incidents where men have robbed places etc. dressed in the niqab or burka and they couldn't be indentified for obvious reasons?
I don't particularly believe that head/body coverings are a sign of opression. In some cases they are, others they aren't. But frankly the niqab and burka are just a safety threat to everyone because you can't see who is underneath all that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
I don't particularly believe that head/body coverings are a sign of opression. In some cases they are, others they aren't. But frankly the niqab and burka are just a safety threat to everyone because you can't see who is underneath all that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
What is the number? I'm not convinced there is legitimate cause for significant concern over safety.
That said, your private religious views shouldn't ever exempt you from the rules. If it's illegal to cover your face in certain situations, it shouldn't magically be okay just because you think God says you should do it.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by RivalPlayer
So how can it ever have place in society when it runs counter to everything that this country supposedly stands for? - I just don't get it.
Because we're a tolerant society.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Don't think it will go down any differently.
You'll get outrage, you'll get supporters, whatever.
I'm sure the Islamic faith isn't (excuse the pun) wrapped
solely around a piece of cloth anyway.
They can still practice their faith, just remove the cloth like what I heard France called for. And did a war start? No.
You'll get outrage, you'll get supporters, whatever.
I'm sure the Islamic faith isn't (excuse the pun) wrapped
solely around a piece of cloth anyway. They can still practice their faith, just remove the cloth like what I heard France called for. And did a war start? No.
Original post by Abolished
The majority of people in the UK would support the idea.
Only because of demographics, not necessarily because of any intelligence behind the idea.
Demographically the UK is like 90% white non Muslim so of course the idea will be supported. Ah well.
Original post by Habibananna
Well said mashallah, I almost feel sorry for some muslim's in todays society, this immense need to be accepted and to integrate is to such a degree that they feel the need to follow kuffar and dislike their own religion, all to be accepeted by mere humans. It's sad, but we should remember that the prophet (swt) said: "Whoever imitatesa people is one of them." That including some aspects of dressing.
You're right, it's sad to witness. May Allah guide them
Original post by Moonstruck16
So what is your view on the number of incidents where men have robbed places etc. dressed in the niqab or burka and they couldn't be indentified for obvious reasons?
I don't particularly believe that head/body coverings are a sign of opression. In some cases they are, others they aren't. But frankly the niqab and burka are just a safety threat to everyone because you can't see who is underneath all that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
I don't particularly believe that head/body coverings are a sign of opression. In some cases they are, others they aren't. But frankly the niqab and burka are just a safety threat to everyone because you can't see who is underneath all that.
Posted from TSR Mobile
But do you really think banning the niqab will mean that those incidents won't take place anymore? Does the fact that marijuana is illegal actually prevent people from dealing and smoking it? In the same way if someone wishes to they can throw on a niqab and rob places, they'll be breaking the law either way. So banning something that is so dear to some Muslim women, simply because a few people use it for these criminal acts, is unfair.
Original post by yasminkattan
But do you really think banning the niqab will mean that those incidents won't take place anymore? Does the fact that marijuana is illegal actually prevent people from dealing and smoking it? In the same way if someone wishes to they can throw on a niqab and rob places, they'll be breaking the law either way. So banning something that is so dear to some Muslim women, simply because a few people use it for these criminal acts, is unfair.
We're talking about national security, unfair it may be but it is not necessary for life and is not a human right. And I'm not talking about crime, I'm talking about crime where criminals, if they get away, will never be identified because they are wearing something that does not allow them to be identified, the niqab.
Banning the niqab will hopefully remove at least one of the many safety flaws.
Original post by Moonstruck16
We're talking about national security, unfair it may be but it is not necessary for life and is not a human right. And I'm not talking about crime, I'm talking about crime where criminals, if they get away, will never be identified because they are wearing something that does not allow them to be identified, the niqab.
Banning the niqab will hopefully remove at least one of the many safety flaws.
Banning the niqab will hopefully remove at least one of the many safety flaws.
And I'm asking you, how will banning the niqab prevent people from wearing it? People are still free to wear it if they wish to break the law and go rob places, and won't be identified. Banning it won't solve anything.
Original post by yasminkattan
And I'm asking you, how will banning the niqab prevent people from wearing it? People are still free to wear it if they wish to break the law and go rob places, and won't be identified. Banning it won't solve anything.
Considering the current state of things anyone wearing it will probably get arrested the minute they walk out their front door. That should resolve the issue.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by RivalPlayer
It has been suggested in the past that France's ban has fueled Islamic extremism. I don't buy it tho. Look at England, it accommodates Islam and Islamic cultural practices - yet we still have plenty of people who hate this country despite being able to practise freely.
It'll only get harder to introduce a ban as the years go on.
It'll only get harder to introduce a ban as the years go on.
Well I don't know the history of France but I'm sure issues with Islam and France have been on for hundreds of years considering the Middle Ages, Catholicism and the Crusades, etc.
Yes there is religious freedom here and still issues between Islam and other groups for a variety of reasons and culpability. I don't think it's hard to have a ban, it's simply illegal to discriminate against people. They'd simply have to slickly reword the law to create a loophole that it can be done, which will take, what...maybe 5 minutes to actually rewrite it? Then have is passed as a law takes however long, probably not that long and then there you have it, a legislative ban. Big deal, they can still be Muslim without the scarf thingy, can't they?
Banning the Burka doesn't work, but allowing it doesn't either.
These are all symptoms, of a bigger, totally intractable, issue. The unwillingness of devout Muslims to integrate in secular, post Christian, liberal societies.
If there were genuine integration this question wouldn't arise. No-one would want to wear a veil covering their hair and face.
But you can't force people not to wear a burka. It just makes them want to all the more.
So the burka is just a symptom. The spots that reveal the infection, not the infection itself. But if you were to corner me I'd say that banning it will do more harm than good...
These are all symptoms, of a bigger, totally intractable, issue. The unwillingness of devout Muslims to integrate in secular, post Christian, liberal societies.
If there were genuine integration this question wouldn't arise. No-one would want to wear a veil covering their hair and face.
But you can't force people not to wear a burka. It just makes them want to all the more.
So the burka is just a symptom. The spots that reveal the infection, not the infection itself. But if you were to corner me I'd say that banning it will do more harm than good...
Original post by RivalPlayer
I'm sure it's quite easy for the government to draw up. I'm just thinking about the societal side effects of introducing the ban and whether it would go down quietly and generally be accepted. If it would then why hasn't it happened already? It's clear the PM expresses a level of displeasure when it comes to the veil yet he doesn't advocate an outright ban.
Most people feel uncomfortable around the veil. If it's really accepted in our "multicultural" society, then why aren't there veiled newsreaders or a veiled presenter on the BBC's "The One Show"? We've got Muslim women in hijabs on our screens, yet there isn't a single veiled woman on a mainstream TV programme. This only further shows that most people don't feel it is acceptable in British society.
There is a distinct aura of discomfort when it comes to the veil and I don't see it ever dissipating.
So why are the government pussyfooting around it? It's almost like they're scared and would rather appease a minority than risk "something" happening.
Most people feel uncomfortable around the veil. If it's really accepted in our "multicultural" society, then why aren't there veiled newsreaders or a veiled presenter on the BBC's "The One Show"? We've got Muslim women in hijabs on our screens, yet there isn't a single veiled woman on a mainstream TV programme. This only further shows that most people don't feel it is acceptable in British society.
There is a distinct aura of discomfort when it comes to the veil and I don't see it ever dissipating.
So why are the government pussyfooting around it? It's almost like they're scared and would rather appease a minority than risk "something" happening.
I don't see an issue with the ban but I'm sure there are deeper political reasons than, "gee 1% of our country will be so upset with us and will consider either leaving or fighting us, which they do anyway." I'm sure the issue is offending/enraging the Islamic countries, they're basically to-hell-with Muslim citizens.
Original post by Moonstruck16
We're talking about national security, unfair it may be but it is not necessary for life and is not a human right. And I'm not talking about crime, I'm talking about crime where criminals, if they get away, will never be identified because they are wearing something that does not allow them to be identified, the niqab.
Banning the niqab will hopefully remove at least one of the many safety flaws.
Banning the niqab will hopefully remove at least one of the many safety flaws.
What are the risks to national security of people wearing the niqab or burka? I'm really quite sceptical that the risk is anything but astronomically small.
Original post by Implication
What are the risks to national security of people wearing the niqab or burka? I'm really quite sceptical that the risk is anything but astronomically small.
Give the high terror risk, I think uncovered faces would be appreciated.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Moonstruck16
Is there any evidence that forcing people to uncover their faces would have an impact on terrorism? Let alone an impact significant enough to justify such an infringement of civil liberty?
Original post by yasminkattan
Please explain to me how the root of the niqab is oppression. Any historical evidence? This is merely an opinion.
Honestly I don't care who it intimidates. Another person's irrational fear of the niqab isn't a reason to not wear it, or to ban women completely from wearing it. I know at least 9 women who wear the niqab - 5 started wearing it long before getting married, at a very young age, and 4 of them started wearing it as a result of becoming more religious, eventually convincing their "oppressive" husbands that it's the way forward. Some of their friends actually started avoiding them for this reason, because apparently most people associate it with extremism nowadays. Just because a few women you've met have apparently been forced into it means nothing. It is their own individual situation, it doesn't apply to the entire Muslim population.
Well, actually, the reason wouldn't be that "the Prophet's wives did that", the reason would be the fact that it's allowed in Islam and you or other Muslims being against it doesn't change that. I find it so hypocritical how people claim to follow a religion yet completely reject or choose to ignore parts of it. You don't shape Islam to suit your desires or "Western" outlook on life. Yes you are obliged to follow this "600 year-old lifestyle" (try 1400) if it is your religion.
The Hadith I'm talking about isn't false and is graded as Sahih, therefore it is reliable. If as a Muslim you consider Hadith to be unreliable then, well, I don't know what to say to that.
I feel I have a lot more liberty, as you say, as a "non-liberal" (lol) Muslim woman. What's so liberating about showing your breasts on the cover of magazines? Pretty much everything Western women dedicate their lives to nowadays is done for the attention of men, whether they realise it or not, and that to me is the most oppressive culture.
Honestly I don't care who it intimidates. Another person's irrational fear of the niqab isn't a reason to not wear it, or to ban women completely from wearing it. I know at least 9 women who wear the niqab - 5 started wearing it long before getting married, at a very young age, and 4 of them started wearing it as a result of becoming more religious, eventually convincing their "oppressive" husbands that it's the way forward. Some of their friends actually started avoiding them for this reason, because apparently most people associate it with extremism nowadays. Just because a few women you've met have apparently been forced into it means nothing. It is their own individual situation, it doesn't apply to the entire Muslim population.
Well, actually, the reason wouldn't be that "the Prophet's wives did that", the reason would be the fact that it's allowed in Islam and you or other Muslims being against it doesn't change that. I find it so hypocritical how people claim to follow a religion yet completely reject or choose to ignore parts of it. You don't shape Islam to suit your desires or "Western" outlook on life. Yes you are obliged to follow this "600 year-old lifestyle" (try 1400) if it is your religion.
The Hadith I'm talking about isn't false and is graded as Sahih, therefore it is reliable. If as a Muslim you consider Hadith to be unreliable then, well, I don't know what to say to that.
I feel I have a lot more liberty, as you say, as a "non-liberal" (lol) Muslim woman. What's so liberating about showing your breasts on the cover of magazines? Pretty much everything Western women dedicate their lives to nowadays is done for the attention of men, whether they realise it or not, and that to me is the most oppressive culture.
So you are leaving the country apparently because you feel like every time you wear a niqab you are the enemy of the UK - and you are perplexed as to why this is. Yet, you are happy to equally say that Western women whether aware or not, dedicate their lives to the attention of men.
And we wonder why Islam breeds terrorists when you obviously oppose Western society alltogether?
Please get that flight asap, I'll even pay for you.
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