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Should Muslim Women be Allowed to Wear the Hijab in State Schools?
I've been asked this a few times and expected to debate both sides of the issue, but I'm having some problems getting it going (maybe you can help).
When defending the issue, I always go along the lines of individual religious rights, and that in a state school run by the government these should be protected, in order to set an example, etc.
However, when trying to attack it, I have a few points but I have trouble articulating them. The main point I usually begin with is that a public state school, run by the tax monies of the majority population, should enforce a standard of uniformity in order to assist the eclectic bunch of students to assimilate better into society. Additionally, religious symbols that may cause debate or discrimination, such as crosses, Star of David, or a headscarf, can be worn outside of a state school but not on campus and during school hours.
I am having more trouble in attacking the issue than defending it, so any help would be appreciated. I'm expected to debate BOTH sides of this issue strongly and with reasoned logic.
When defending the issue, I always go along the lines of individual religious rights, and that in a state school run by the government these should be protected, in order to set an example, etc.
However, when trying to attack it, I have a few points but I have trouble articulating them. The main point I usually begin with is that a public state school, run by the tax monies of the majority population, should enforce a standard of uniformity in order to assist the eclectic bunch of students to assimilate better into society. Additionally, religious symbols that may cause debate or discrimination, such as crosses, Star of David, or a headscarf, can be worn outside of a state school but not on campus and during school hours.
I am having more trouble in attacking the issue than defending it, so any help would be appreciated. I'm expected to debate BOTH sides of this issue strongly and with reasoned logic.
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no institution should discriminate based on religion, etc. that includes the wearing of religious symbols if they are part of the religion. the hijab is a uniform dictated in the qu'ran and thus is part of that person's religion. to force them to not wear it is against their rights and goes against the human rights act, etc.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
In Britain a "public" school is an exclusive private-funded independent school, while one that's funded by the state is called a "state" school. There are other varieties too which are half way houses, but it all gets a bit too confusing for the purpose of this thread.
Hylean
no institution should discriminate based on religion, etc. that includes the wearing of religious symbols if they are part of the religion. the hijab is a uniform dictated in the qu'ran and thus is part of that person's religion. to force them to not wear it is against their rights and goes against the human rights act, etc.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
Hrm. Good points. I am wondering though why others have banned the Hijab in public schools (but not private schools of course), such as France, Iraq, and some states in India.
Also, I have studied Islam before but don't recall where it says in the Koran that the Hijab is a requirement: I HAVE read though that it calls for modesty amongst men and women, and the hijab is one interpretation of that call for modesty. Of course, this can be argued as it's a matter of view
Let's assume that the Koran does not explicitly call for the hijab, but just "modesty." Would it still be a human rights violation for a state school to demand a uniform dress code that does not include religious symbols?
EDIT: STATE school, not PUBLIC.
The West Wing
In Britain a "public" school is an exclusive private-funded independent school, while one that's funded by the state is called a "state" school. There are other varieties too which are half way houses, but it all gets a bit too confusing for the purpose of this thread.
Thank you. I edited the topic title. For the purposes of this thread, I meant to discuss government/tax funded schools, open to everyone, in the UK.
As its personal preference/belief and we as a nation (supposedly) believe in freedom of expression and belief then NO it shouldn't be banned.
So its a yes from me for being allowed.
So its a yes from me for being allowed.
Hylean
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
There is no 'rule' about the hijab, there is something vague about dressing modestly. If you ask me, in a British school, wearing something alien to the other members of the school/community that covers up most of your body is not modest.
TBH i don't really have a problem with girls that wear the head covering veil underneath uniform. I disagree with what it stands for and the equality we are priveliged to have in the UK that it contradicts, but it does not bother me on a personal level. However I do really object to full outfits that do not incorporate school uniform.
Anyway as for articulating points about why veil should be banned - how about saying that it is NOT 'required' by Islam. Also give examples of Tunisia and Turkey, predominantly Muslim countries where the veil is banned in schools and the reasons they give for this.
However I think the primary reason against the veil in school is that it is a symbol of segregation, of isolation and of difference. However this viewpoint is pretty subjective so might not be suitable.
Christop III
As its personal preference/belief and we as a nation (supposedly) believe in freedom of expression and belief then NO it shouldn't be banned.
So its a yes from me for being allowed.
So its a yes from me for being allowed.
Complete freedom of expression in schools would mean no uniforms. A uniform ceases to become a uniform (OED - 'uniformity') if people are allowed to opt in and opt out.
No. Body language (facial expressions) are a key part of communication and therefore communicating knowledge.
If we value our childrens future and their education it should not be allowed. I think this will also have inplications on the econmy of the country as well.
First step, withdraw from the EU, depart from the European Convention on Human Rights, codify our constitution (change the judicial oath?) and creat a British Bill of Rights for citizens which are our own values.
If we value our childrens future and their education it should not be allowed. I think this will also have inplications on the econmy of the country as well.
First step, withdraw from the EU, depart from the European Convention on Human Rights, codify our constitution (change the judicial oath?) and creat a British Bill of Rights for citizens which are our own values.
HawaiianDelight
Hrm. Good points. I am wondering though why others have banned the Hijab in public schools (but not private schools of course), such as France, Iraq, and some states in India.
Also, I have studied Islam before but don't recall where it says in the Koran that the Hijab is a requirement: I HAVE read though that it calls for modesty amongst men and women, and the hijab is one interpretation of that call for modesty. Of course, this can be argued as it's a matter of view
Let's assume that the Koran does not explicitly call for the hijab, but just "modesty." Would it still be a human rights violation for a public school to demand a uniform dress code that does not include religious symbols?
Also, I have studied Islam before but don't recall where it says in the Koran that the Hijab is a requirement: I HAVE read though that it calls for modesty amongst men and women, and the hijab is one interpretation of that call for modesty. Of course, this can be argued as it's a matter of view
Let's assume that the Koran does not explicitly call for the hijab, but just "modesty." Would it still be a human rights violation for a public school to demand a uniform dress code that does not include religious symbols?
ah, many muslims i've chatted with had told me it was a uniform rule in the qu'ran. fair enough if it isn't. if it isn't, then they don't have to wear it since it does not ruin anyone's modesty and it is then in the same category as crosses and the stars of david, in my opinion.
unless the religion directly states otherwise, the students/employees should follow the rules of their institution as long as the rules do not take away their rights, etc.
many places ban it because it makes it hard to adequately identify the person beneath, one of the reasons jack straw demanded that they don't wear it when they visit him.
my school dresscode forbade public symbols of any faith, jewellery in general, long hair, etc. (it's all boys). thankfully i'm gone, but their rules were not in direct opposition to the human rights act, though one could argue otherwise, but the case would be very weak. blanket bans, in my opinion, are generally better than partial bans. though i'd rather there were no bans at all.
TOD100
No. Body language (facial expressions) are a key part of communication and therefore communicating knowledge.
If we value our childrens future and their education it should not be allowed. I think this will also have inplications on the econmy of the country as well.
First step, withdraw from the EU, depart from the European Convention on Human Rights, codify our constitution (change the judicial oath?) and creat a British Bill of Rights for citizens which are our own values.
If we value our childrens future and their education it should not be allowed. I think this will also have inplications on the econmy of the country as well.
First step, withdraw from the EU, depart from the European Convention on Human Rights, codify our constitution (change the judicial oath?) and creat a British Bill of Rights for citizens which are our own values.
We're trying to have a debate about the HIJAB - please don't hijack it with your general right-wing posturing. If you want to push those issues, go elsewhere.
TOD100
actually does the hijab cover the whole face except the eyes? If it covers the majority of the face then my above post is my opinion.
If it allows the whole face to be seen, then i don't see a problem
If it allows the whole face to be seen, then i don't see a problem
The hjiab for this discussion covers the hair and neck, but not the face. An example would be the scarf that this woman is wearing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=492407&in_page_id=1770
Overground
We're trying to have a debate about the HIJAB - please don't hijack it with your general right-wing posturing. If you want to push those issues, go elsewhere.
Screw you pal. I answered the question and gave reasons for my opinion. What's your problem? Is it becuase you disagree?? Welcome to a DEBATE sunshine.
I don't see why it can't be up to the individual schools - they set the standards for the uniforms, after all. I'm no great stickler for uniforms myself, but I see no reason why people should be able to decide not to wear them based on their beliefs, whether religious or not. If an atheist decides that skirts are immodest and chooses to wear trousers instead even though they're against the dress code, I'm pretty sure everyone would just tell them to suck it up and stop rocking the boat.
TOD100
Screw you pal. I answered the question and gave reasons for my opinion. What's your problem? Is it becuase you disagree?? Welcome to a DEBATE sunshine.
No, I agree with the point that the hijab should not be allowed in schools. Yes, you answered the question and then proceeded to press a load of unrelated issues. What's your problem? Are you struggling with reading the title/theme of the debate?
Welcome to a DEBATE sunshine.
The Hijab should certainly be allowed.
This nonsense about a veil inhibiting communication is just that, nonsense. I communicate perfectly well over the telephone, internet, by letter, fax etc...... Why on earth would I need to see someones face to feel that I was communicating effectively; pure folly.
This nonsense about a veil inhibiting communication is just that, nonsense. I communicate perfectly well over the telephone, internet, by letter, fax etc...... Why on earth would I need to see someones face to feel that I was communicating effectively; pure folly.
HawaiianDelight
The hjiab for this discussion covers the hair and neck, but not the face. An example would be the scarf that this woman is wearing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=492407&in_page_id=1770
i personally see no problem with it. however, for certain official things, i'd probably see it removed, just to make identification easier, etc.
on the whole though, it's hardly segregationalist to wear that.
Hylean
no institution should discriminate based on religion, etc. that includes the wearing of religious symbols if they are part of the religion. the hijab is a uniform dictated in the qu'ran and thus is part of that person's religion. to force them to not wear it is against their rights and goes against the human rights act, etc.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
christianity and judaism have no such rule about the cross or the star of david in their religion, islam does, thus the situation is different. in fact the cross in christianity is a major debate and one of the reasons for the schism between caths and prods.
The way I understand it, wearing the Hijab is merely one interpretation of the Q'uran. In any case it's irrelevant, it's part of at least some people's interpretation of a religion, as you rightly said.
I personally have no problem with it, on 2 conditions:
1. It is the individual's choice to wear it. There have been many instances where women have been forced to wear it.
2. It's not impractical. In security situations where identification is necessary, a hijab covering the face isn't practical. I would also say that a teacher wearing such a thing would hinder her ability to do her job. But the ones mentioned specifically, that don't cover the face fully, are fine in this regard.
Overground
No, I agree with the point that the hijab should not be allowed in schools. Yes, you answered the question and then proceeded to press a load of unrelated issues. What's your problem? Are you struggling with reading the title/theme of the debate?
Welcome to a DEBATE sunshine.
Welcome to a DEBATE sunshine.
Yet you continue to 'hijack' the thread yourself. Don't jump on people if they go to far, tell them in a polite way and see if that works. Otherwise you just look like a prat who is clearly in a stress over a post on the internet....
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