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Should Muslim Women be Allowed to Wear the Hijab in State Schools?

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We're trying to have a debate about the HIJAB - please don't hijack it with your general right-wing posturing. If you want to push those issues, go elsewhere.

Look, I said please :biggrin:

And i said it because EU etc is all entirely irrelevant to the debate. OK I'm retiring from this argument so people can actually talk about the issue in the title?

Reply 21

username136883

Zainyx

I don't see why it can't be up to the individual schools - they set the standards for the uniforms, after all. I'm no great stickler for uniforms myself, but I see no reason why people should be able to decide not to wear them based on their beliefs, whether religious or not. If an atheist decides that skirts are immodest and chooses to wear trousers instead even though they're against the dress code, I'm pretty sure everyone would just tell them to suck it up and stop rocking the boat.

I agree - I think uniforms should be uniforms. 'Religious reasons' is a stupid reason to let someone have their way, even if it's an integral part of their religion, and defying it means eternal punishment - if they wanted to eat a baby and claimed 'religious reasons', would anyone even consider it? 'Religious reasons' are just 'personal reasons', after all, so anywhere where personal reasons would be enough justification, they can do whatever. Unless the school's uniform policy is more of a dress code, and it doesn't actually prohibit head-coverings, it's not a situation where 'personal preferences' would get you a green light.

Reply 22

CorpusNinja

Yes, seeing as they're not wearing them as a fashion statement, but out of necessity, it's fine. You wouldn't force a Sikh to cut his hair because the school has a 'no long hair' policy, so I don't see any reason to impose this restriction on hijabs.

Reply 23

UniOfLife

Isn't it slightly pathetic that everyone has a view on this but that a large number of people seem totally oblivious to the difference between a Hijab and a Niqab. No wonder there's no sensible debate in this country - people don't know what they're talking about.

Reply 24

ForeverIsMyName

UniOfLife

The same could be said about the vast majority of issues in the world. In fact, I don't think many people would argue with such a statement.

Reply 25

UniOfLife

ForeverIsMyName

The same could be said about the vast majority of issues in the world. In fact, I don't think many people would argue with such a statement.

True. But at least with other issues the ignorance is about more complicated and complex background issues. Here it is pig ignorance about the object you're talking about. Maybe it just highlights the general ignorance. There's no sensible debate these days because almost anyone can take part in them and most people who do, shouldn't.

Reply 26

Catsmeat

Hylean

no institution should discriminate based on religion, etc. that includes the wearing of religious symbols if they are part of the religion. the hijab is a uniform dictated in the qu'ran and thus is part of that person's religion. to force them to not wear it is against their rights and goes against the human rights act, etc.

I support the rights of an individual to wear the hijab, yet as far as I am aware there is no distinct reference to the hijab in the Quran, rathermore the hijab is a manifestation of the importance of personal modesty and a mechanism for displaying one's honour within a society. The main issue with this issue of the Hijab is that, as a practice, veiling is variable and means a multiplicity of things; for some individuals it is a way for asserting personal modesty and honour (as amongst some Bedouin societies) whilst for others it can be used to assert individuality and is used as a fashion item. There is no singular meaning for the hijab, and so equally you cannot discriminate against it based on a singular, homogenous umbrella.

Reply 27

urbandervish

Overground

There is no 'rule' about the hijab, there is something vague about dressing modestly. If you ask me, in a British school, wearing something alien to the other members of the school/community that covers up most of your body is not modest.

TBH i don't really have a problem with girls that wear the head covering veil underneath uniform. I disagree with what it stands for and the equality we are priveliged to have in the UK that it contradicts, but it does not bother me on a personal level. However I do really object to full outfits that do not incorporate school uniform.

Anyway as for articulating points about why veil should be banned - how about saying that it is NOT 'required' by Islam. Also give examples of Tunisia and Turkey, predominantly Muslim countries where the veil is banned in schools and the reasons they give for this.

However I think the primary reason against the veil in school is that it is a symbol of segregation, of isolation and of difference. However this viewpoint is pretty subjective so might not be suitable.

Would you still have a problem with wearing academic regalia such as Mortar & Tassle (as seen on a Fez cap) and Gown/Robe (long black cape) during Graduation? This is after all, full Islamic garb is it not? Are we not in Europe/the West wearing something totally alien[?]

Do you know, or are aware of the Islamic religious reasons and/or any of the key Islamic theological and metaphysical symbolisms and their significance in wearing Mortar & Tassle and Gown?

What offence is committed in wearing Islamic garb in western educational institutions? Do such negative views only keep alive prejudices and misgivings and further compound our relationship with Muslims? An intolerance and fear that has been present in the European mentality since the savage Crusades.

Besides, the wearing of something alien comes with a whole perception of Islam taking over Europe and the Clash Of Civilisations and that Islam is an intruder and a threat to Western values and practice is nothing but a warped and bent conspiracy theory and moral panic created by half-hysterical, hyperventilating Islamophobes. European life and scenario would have been a very dismal one if Islam had NOT brought universities and libraries to the West. Islam is not a threat but an asset. It is because of Islam that we have some of the best universities in the world...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/news/article660845.ece
http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=161

Scholars now believe that terms such as having ‘fellows’, holding a ‘chair’, or students ‘reading’ a subject and obtaining ‘degrees’, as well as practices such mortar boards, tassles and academic robes, can all be traced back to the practices of medieval madrasas like those still extant in Fez. It was in cities bordering Islamic Morocco, Spain and Sicily- Paris, Salerno, and Montpellier- that first developed universities in Christendom, the idea spreading northwards from there. As late as the 14th century, European scholars would travel to the Islamic world to pick up the advanced learning then on offer in the madrasas of Spain and Morocco. As the Mozarab Alvaro of Cordova wrote:
“My fellow Christians delight in the poems of the Arabs; they study the work of Muslim philosophers, not in order to refute them, but to acquire an elegant Arabic style. Where today can a layman be found who reads Latin commentaries on Holy scripture? At the mention of Christian books they protest that such works are unworthy of notice.” William Dalrymple (Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and the Royal Asiatic Society), The Sacred Music of Fez.

To those who cherish a long history of Islamophobia, bigotry, and ignorance, the presence of a Muslim woman wearing a hijab or veil will continue to be alien and threatening. The idea that Muslims could have equal rights and freedom of expression is unacceptable. Is this how devastatingly wretched, ungrateful, intolerant, arrogant and hypocritical we are? This debate is nothing more than a façade and inexcusable folly.

The first universities to issue diplomas were the Bimaristan medical university-hospitals of the medieval Islamic world, where medical diplomas were issued to students of Islamic medicine who were qualified to be practicing doctors of medicine from the 9th century. The Guinness Book of World Records recognizes the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco as the oldest university in the world with its founding in 859. Al-Azhar University, founded in Cairo, Egypt in the 10th century, offered a variety of post-graduate degrees, and is often considered the first full-fledged university.

Khalif (Caliph) Al-Ma'mun's period of rule (813 - 833 C.E.) may be considered the 'golden age' of science and learning. He had always been devoted to books and to learned pursuits. His brilliant mind was interested in every form of intellectual activity. Not only poetry but also philosophy, theology, astronomy, medicine and law all occupied his time.

Reply 28

WaW™

HawaiianDelight

Hrm. Good points. I am wondering though why others have banned the Hijab in public schools (but not private schools of course), such as France, Iraq, and some states in India.

Also, I have studied Islam before but don't recall where it says in the Koran that the Hijab is a requirement: I HAVE read though that it calls for modesty amongst men and women, and the hijab is one interpretation of that call for modesty. Of course, this can be argued as it's a matter of view :wink:

Let's assume that the Koran does not explicitly call for the hijab, but just "modesty." Would it still be a human rights violation for a state school to demand a uniform dress code that does not include religious symbols?
EDIT: STATE school, not PUBLIC.

Yes. If a Christian is asked to remove there pendant it would be a violation or if a Sikh is asked to remove there bangle. I personally dont think its that important if th school you go to has banned the Hijab then go to another one which hasn't all the stuff you hear in the press etc about stuff like this builds up a negative image about Islam, one which is not needed.

Its good to hear you have read and studied the Qu'ran and have made your own assumptions from it...some ppl say it is a requirments others dont but the general consensus among scholars is that it is important and needed.

Reply 29

silverbolt

CorpusNinja

Yes, seeing as they're not wearing them as a fashion statement,

really then how come if you look closely you'l notice that some hijabs are covered in brand names like calvin klien. they are worn very much as a fashion statement.

I think that there should be a blanket ban on all religious items in schools and a set uniform. Religion has no place in school save as a subject to be learned about. Its not fair on some but not others. If they wish to wear religious items in school then go to a corresponding religious faith school.

Reply 30

Callipygian

I don't want to be flamed here, but i am just going to say my opinion..
I think it's fine for pupils etc to wear the head scarf, but if they're a teacher (or teaching assistant) in a primary school (ages 5 - 11) i don't really think its appropriate (if it covers the whole face not just the hair, just hair is fine). Children need to be able to pick up on facial expressions from their teacher, and frankly, a five year old who is not used to it would most likely find it scary...

Reply 31

CorpusNinja

silverbolt

really then how come if you look closely you'l notice that some hijabs are covered in brand names like calvin klien. they are worn very much as a fashion statement.

No, they are first worn as religious necessities and since they are compulsory, they might as well choose a fashionable variety. It's not that hard to comprehend. They don't wear them first as fashion statements, because otherwise you'd see non-Muslims wear them too, which I am yet to hear of.

Reply 32

jaw

I don't see a problem with wearing them..

in my opinion, if you were to ban them, in the hope of not 'singling out' a religion, people would want a total ban on religious symbolism. now this has many problems. neckalces, bracelets etc are worn and somewhat hidden, where as the headscarfs are quite visible. It's all well to say 'we can't have one rule for one religion, and a different for others' but you can't say a headscarf and a hidden necklace are one and the same. People will get away with wearing necklaces etc.

People don't have a prolem with the religeon, they see headwear as obscuring learning. I don't have a problem with it myself, I'm all for upholding traditions etc, but I'd be tempted to say that covering the face is a bit unsuitable for school, especially in the younger years when childeren will find contact with just eyes a bit daunting and can misunderstand instructions or comments made lightheartedly. I don't think that Hijab, crucifixes or any other religeous clothing or jewellery should be banned.

IMO, to ban all religion from schools stops integration and understanding which are paramount to things like equality, acceptance and understanding in society.
Thats my two cents..

Reply 33

jaw

CorpusNinja

it's a bit like crucifixes and crosses made by tiffany's :smile:

Reply 34

Socrates

Yes they should be allowed to. I've yet to hear a credible argument as to why they shouldn't, mainly because most school uniform policies if not stipulate nothing about headgear.

Reply 35

WaW™

The whole Hijab debate is blown out of proportion i agree with some of the stuff said about Niqaabs but I dont see whst is wrong with Hijabs.

For eg how can you work in a lab with a full Niqaab? - its dangerous you just cant do it however Hijab would not stop you.

Reply 36

L i b

Hylean

no institution should discriminate based on religion, etc.

Why not?

to force them to not wear it is against their rights and goes against the human rights act, etc.

No it isn't.

Reply 37

CorpusNinja

jaw

it's a bit like crucifixes and crosses made by tiffany's :smile:

Well...does Christianity require followers to wear a cross? I don't think so.

Reply 38

jaw

CorpusNinja

Well...does Christianity require followers to wear a cross? I don't think so.

I thought a hijab was tradition rather than compulsion? at anyrate, it's the same principle really. it's still a religeous item which is commercialised and sold en mass. some would consider a crucifix as a necesary part of their religeon.