Just some thoughts about pride in your identity
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Original post by hotpud
I'm really sorry but you have completely thrown me. How is being angry or sad different from being racially abused?
It is like saying that bullying is good because it makes people grow a thick skin. No it doesn't. It psychologically scars people and in my case, for life. I am still as a grown adult dealing the the aftermath of the bullying I received at school. The cricketer in this case went on to have suicidal thoughts. And you say a bit of abuse a healthy?
Come on! Seriously?
It is like saying that bullying is good because it makes people grow a thick skin. No it doesn't. It psychologically scars people and in my case, for life. I am still as a grown adult dealing the the aftermath of the bullying I received at school. The cricketer in this case went on to have suicidal thoughts. And you say a bit of abuse a healthy?
Come on! Seriously?
We were talking about feelings of prejudice. I do not support people being racially abused at their place of work.
This is I think pretty interesting what you've opened up with which I've noticed is a trend amongst left wing people.
I genuinely don't think these people give two ****s about bullying or racism. Not really. Provided it's them doing the bullying or/and racism, they're more than fine with it. We can see this clearly with so called cancel culture.
"But I really do think racism/ bullying is wrong in all circumstances!"
Sure you do
. You might even sincerely believe this to, the thing is most bullies will also say the same thing about bullying. It's part of a deep seated psychological need for revenge and inner resentment dressed up as being a "good person". They want to bully the "bullies" (or who they perceive as bullies) but they're too weak and cowardly to do it themselves so they'll get the state to do it.
It's basically the political equivalent of going "I'm going to get my brother on you! " (a big brother in fact)
Male feminists/ "nice guys" do something similar when they try to virtue signal to get laid.
It's all about power relations.
Original post by Starship Trooper
It's all about power relations.
I agree with this. The line between bully and victim is wafer thin and the two can interchange in an instant. But I hope you are not accusing me of being a bully. I would hate that idea even though I will admit I have bullied in the past. I note the chair of Yorkshire Cricket Club has resigned today. Too right. No virtue signalling there. He does not deserve to stay in post. He had the opportunity to act on the recommendations given to him. He choose not to follow those recommendations. Actions = consequences.
I am sure he will be fine.
(edited 2 years ago)
Yeah - I was thinking about this too. I was massively bullied as a kid. Someone on these forums said that bullying was all part of growing a thick skin but I reflected on this. People who grow a thick skin do so because they have support. Perhaps they have a strong family or good friends who can support them through the incident. I didn't. I had no one. My mum had just divorced. My grandad just died and I had just moved house to a new village where I knew no one. It really affected me.
So the idea that you can just move on is fine if you have a strong support network but doesn't work for everyone. The cricketer in this case reported suicidal thoughts as a result of this abuse and those feelings are entirely valid. Just because something like that doesn't bother us does not mean it has a very different impact on other people.
So the idea that you can just move on is fine if you have a strong support network but doesn't work for everyone. The cricketer in this case reported suicidal thoughts as a result of this abuse and those feelings are entirely valid. Just because something like that doesn't bother us does not mean it has a very different impact on other people.
Original post by hotpud
I agree with this. The line between bully and victim is wafer thin and the two can interchange in an instant. But I hope you are not accusing me of being a bully. I would hate that idea even though I will admit I have bullied in the past.
I note the chair of Yorkshire Cricket Club has resigned today. Too right. No virtue signalling there. He does not deserve to stay in post. He had the opportunity to act on the recommendations given to him. He choose not to follow those recommendations. Actions = consequences.
I am sure he will be fine.
I note the chair of Yorkshire Cricket Club has resigned today. Too right. No virtue signalling there. He does not deserve to stay in post. He had the opportunity to act on the recommendations given to him. He choose not to follow those recommendations. Actions = consequences.
I am sure he will be fine.
That's basically my point.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't agree it's this huge problem we should be fixated on.
I think the eighties were the highlight of race relations and we've gone downhill massively since then.
Original post by hotpud
Yeah - I was thinking about this too. I was massively bullied as a kid. Someone on these forums said that bullying was all part of growing a thick skin but I reflected on this. People who grow a thick skin do so because they have support. Perhaps they have a strong family or good friends who can support them through the incident. I didn't. I had no one. My mum had just divorced. My grandad just died and I had just moved house to a new village where I knew no one. It really affected me.
So the idea that you can just move on is fine if you have a strong support network but doesn't work for everyone. The cricketer in this case reported suicidal thoughts as a result of this abuse and those feelings are entirely valid. Just because something like that doesn't bother us does not mean it has a very different impact on other people.
So the idea that you can just move on is fine if you have a strong support network but doesn't work for everyone. The cricketer in this case reported suicidal thoughts as a result of this abuse and those feelings are entirely valid. Just because something like that doesn't bother us does not mean it has a very different impact on other people.
It's a really boomerish, corny thing to say but it is 100% true
Being a man is about being alone, in the sense that nobody is going to save you and that ultimately you have to rely on yourself. And by the way by alone I don't necessarily mean in an incel autistic sense, you could be the biggest most popular Chad ever.
I was the same as you, bullied , grew up with a single mum with no real positive or masculine role model and growing up was a liberal leftist because that it what such environments create. It was only through a variety of factors I was able to overcome such weakness (although it is a battle I am still fighting against)
It wasnt against its will in the start though. The Indians have handled it poorly since, Pakistans fault for constantly murdering civillians but still. As far as morality goes the Pakistanis are clearly the losers on every front though.
I cant say i ever heard of hinusim 'being forced' on the population? As opposed to the brand new policy of allowing immigration there?
I said the likes of, not them specifically.
I cant say i ever heard of hinusim 'being forced' on the population? As opposed to the brand new policy of allowing immigration there?
I said the likes of, not them specifically.
Original post by Joleee
well i was taught to be ashamed of myself and my heritage ever since i can remember and still so ashamed i won't even dare to say my backyard outloud till this day 
(fyi it won't be what you think it is. you may have heard of it if i told you but you still won't know what it actually is and i can promise you it's never ever been even mentioned on TSR). said shame was brought on because it wasn't uncommon where i'm from but because no one really knew what it means to be XYZ, those around us, even kids at school, assumed we were weird and backwards living in the 1800s or something. that's why i never say my family's background because cba to explain what it means to be XYZ and i suppose cuz mostly i don't think you'll believe me anyway; you'll just believe the stereotypes since obvs those are more dependable cuz you see it more often and it's 'common knowledge'. it's amazing how shame can be so engrained tho.
to the OP if you've never been taught to be ashamed of something you can't change and has historically been discrimated against ofc being proud of your race, sexuality, gender, nationality, etc will be a non-issue, which i think you have acknowledged. that isn't everyone's story tho, especially older generations who perhaps had to live thro things you haven't experienced. personally have no problem with anyone saying they're proud of the aforementioned. sometimes it takes a lot of courage for even a young man to say he's attracted to other men or to admit to society you're trans when you know defo you will get backlash.
(fyi it won't be what you think it is. you may have heard of it if i told you but you still won't know what it actually is and i can promise you it's never ever been even mentioned on TSR). said shame was brought on because it wasn't uncommon where i'm from but because no one really knew what it means to be XYZ, those around us, even kids at school, assumed we were weird and backwards living in the 1800s or something. that's why i never say my family's background because cba to explain what it means to be XYZ and i suppose cuz mostly i don't think you'll believe me anyway; you'll just believe the stereotypes since obvs those are more dependable cuz you see it more often and it's 'common knowledge'. it's amazing how shame can be so engrained tho.to the OP if you've never been taught to be ashamed of something you can't change and has historically been discrimated against ofc being proud of your race, sexuality, gender, nationality, etc will be a non-issue, which i think you have acknowledged. that isn't everyone's story tho, especially older generations who perhaps had to live thro things you haven't experienced. personally have no problem with anyone saying they're proud of the aforementioned. sometimes it takes a lot of courage for even a young man to say he's attracted to other men or to admit to society you're trans when you know defo you will get backlash.
Are you a native?
I don't think "racism," is real, as understood in the West beyond being bigoted against certain groups
But it cracks me up how genuinely hardcore racist many Indians are
But it cracks me up how genuinely hardcore racist many Indians are
Pakistan does not treat minorities any better I would hate to be a Christian Jew zoroastrian etc in Pakistan or India both are in 10 worst countries to be Christian atheist.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by Starship Trooper
I don't think "racism," is real, as understood in the West beyond being bigoted against certain groups
But it cracks me up how genuinely hardcore racist many Indians are
But it cracks me up how genuinely hardcore racist many Indians are
The attitude in countries outside the west is so much the polar opposite of this (of course varying between the healthier "us first", on the one hand, and on the other, views which can end up being "us vs them"), that it isn't even funny.
At work, it was an Indian gentleman, who when asked about how the organisation plans to be more "inclusive" (read: hire less caucasian males) simply retorted he doesn't care about the usual innate characteristics and hires on merit... after which of course the usual canned garbage followed by someone to "correct" it.
(edited 2 years ago)
Exactly, and the country's political and legal establishment virtually bend over backwards to make it so.
Yup. IMO it's pushed for rather cynical reasons (both economic and political, a tool not unfamiliar to the empires of yore) and then any opposition to it is dismissed as "racism", because that's seen as an easy way to quash dissent.
Original post by Starship Trooper
That's basically my point.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't agree it's this huge problem we should be fixated on.
I think the eighties were the highlight of race relations and we've gone downhill massively since then.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't agree it's this huge problem we should be fixated on.
I think the eighties were the highlight of race relations and we've gone downhill massively since then.
You don't think it is a problem because you aren't on the end of the abuse. Others might somewhat disagree with that. Just because it isn't your problem doesn't mean it isn't a massive problem. It really is, especially around policing and justice. If you don't have a fair policing and justice system, you don't have a democracy.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by TCA2b
The attitude in countries outside the west is so much the polar opposite of this (of course varying between the healthier "us first", on the one hand, and on the other, views which can end up being "us vs them"), that it isn't even funny.
At work, it was an Indian gentleman, who when asked about how the organisation plans to be more "inclusive" (read: hire less caucasian males) simply retorted he doesn't care about the usual innate characteristics and hires on merit... after which of course the usual canned garbage followed by someone to "correct" it.
At work, it was an Indian gentleman, who when asked about how the organisation plans to be more "inclusive" (read: hire less caucasian males) simply retorted he doesn't care about the usual innate characteristics and hires on merit... after which of course the usual canned garbage followed by someone to "correct" it.
No that's not even the level i'm talking about. I've heard Indians talk about for instance black people in ways that would make the KKK blush
Based indian man. The absolute horror.
I think there needs to be a sensible discussion about immigration that frankly no one is really capable of having. (An actual sensible discussion where both views are heard and expressed properly)
To the natives- it's not the immigrants fault that are political and economic system for a variety of reasons incentivises people to come here and improve their lives. If say Japan or South Korea did the same for white people, eg give them a better quality of life and treat them better than the native population then many people would take them up on that.
To the immigrants- imagine things were ok at your home when all of a sudden there were large influxes of Chinese people who you were not allowed to criticise and they gradually become more vocal about their entitlements and became critical of your own race or culture and removing things like statues etc.
To the natives- it's not the immigrants fault that are political and economic system for a variety of reasons incentivises people to come here and improve their lives. If say Japan or South Korea did the same for white people, eg give them a better quality of life and treat them better than the native population then many people would take them up on that.
To the immigrants- imagine things were ok at your home when all of a sudden there were large influxes of Chinese people who you were not allowed to criticise and they gradually become more vocal about their entitlements and became critical of your own race or culture and removing things like statues etc.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by hotpud
You don't think it is a problem because you aren't on the end of the abuse.
Others might somewhat disagree with that.
Just because it isn't your problem doesn't mean it isn't a massive problem.
It really is, especially around policing and justice.
If you don't have a fair policing and justice system, you don't have a democracy.
Others might somewhat disagree with that.
Just because it isn't your problem doesn't mean it isn't a massive problem.
It really is, especially around policing and justice.
If you don't have a fair policing and justice system, you don't have a democracy.
I mean this is basically the "rawlsian" argument. I think it's basically dumb because it's pure hypothetical. Yes if I was a starving gay refugee I would have a different view on things, but so what? If I was a hardcore neo Nazi I'd also have a different view on things. Everyone has their own built in subjective views and biases and for good reason.
Sure, but I still don't think it's a problem and there is a minority of eg black people and other minorities that agree with me eg JLP, Candace Owens, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas etc etc. Now leftoids like to point at them and call them right wing dupes, well I think that the ones who go along with the left are left wing dupes.
There was a red pilling moment in my life when I was a lefty and I was talking about politics to a African colleague who was a hardcore Thatcherite. Anyway he told me he would be voting labour, purely because they would give him better benefits to send home to Africa and he didn't care if labour ruined the country.
You also have things like country's opening up their prisons and releasing their inmates and turning then into "refugees" because they know that some idiot western country will be stupid enough to take them in.
It's these sorts of things, basically Human Nature, that liberal idealism/ utopianism "humanism" don't account for, and thus leads to them becoming tyrannical because they can't understand why their "perfect worldview" isn't working so it must be the fault of "racists" or some other evil collaborators etc.
I mean suffice to say I disagree entirely with your premise that the reason there are more black criminals is because of racism. It's simply because they commit more crimes for a variety of factors of which racism doesn't play a meaningful part. Attempts to make it more "fair" just lead to soft policing which we have seen ample evidence leads to a huge increase in crime and misery. If anything a more "discriminatory" police and justice system, eg putting heavily armed police into violent ethnic neighborhoods would save far more lives rather than the liberal approach now of letting them all shoot each other.
Iirc more black Americans died last year alone because of crime than all of the black Americans that have ever been lynched in Americas history. We should have moved on from all this is pandering a long time ago.
I'm not really pro universal suffrage so I don't really care about "democracy" in the way that you're talking about.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by Starship Trooper
No that's not even the level i'm talking about. I've heard Indians talk about for instance black people in ways that would make the KKK blush
Based indian man. The absolute horror.
Based indian man. The absolute horror.
Oh I know, that incident just struck me as funny.
Original post by Starship Trooper
I mean this is basically the "rawlsian" argument. I think it's basically dumb because it's pure hypothetical. Yes if I was a starving gay refugee I would have a different view on things, but so what? If I was a hardcore neo Nazi I'd also have a different view on things. Everyone has their own built in subjective views and biases and for good reason.
Sure, but I still don't think it's a problem and there is a minority of eg black people and other minorities that agree with me eg JLP, Candace Owens, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas etc etc. Now leftoids like to point at them and call them right wing dupes, well I think that the ones who go along with the left are left wing dupes.
There was a red pilling moment in my life when I was a lefty and I was talking about politics to a African colleague who was a hardcore Thatcherite. Anyway he told me he would be voting labour, purely because they would give him better benefits to send home to Africa and he didn't care if labour ruined the country.
You also have things like country's opening up their prisons and releasing their inmates and turning then into "refugees" because they know that some idiot western country will be stupid enough to take them in.
It's these sorts of things, basically Human Nature, that liberal idealism/ utopianism "humanism" don't account for, and thus leads to them becoming tyrannical because they can't understand why their "perfect worldview" isn't working so it must be the fault of "racists" or some other evil collaborators etc.
I mean suffice to say I disagree entirely with your premise that the reason there are more black criminals is because of racism. It's simply because they commit more crimes for a variety of factors of which racism doesn't play a meaningful part. Attempts to make it more "fair" just lead to soft policing which we have seen ample evidence leads to a huge increase in crime and misery. If anything a more "discriminatory" police and justice system, eg putting heavily armed police into violent ethnic neighborhoods would save far more lives rather than the liberal approach now of letting them all shoot each other.
Iirc more black Americans died last year alone because of crime than all of the black Americans that have ever been lynched in Americas history. We should have moved on from all this is pandering a long time ago.
I'm not really pro universal suffrage so I don't really care about "democracy" in the way that you're talking about.
Sure, but I still don't think it's a problem and there is a minority of eg black people and other minorities that agree with me eg JLP, Candace Owens, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas etc etc. Now leftoids like to point at them and call them right wing dupes, well I think that the ones who go along with the left are left wing dupes.
There was a red pilling moment in my life when I was a lefty and I was talking about politics to a African colleague who was a hardcore Thatcherite. Anyway he told me he would be voting labour, purely because they would give him better benefits to send home to Africa and he didn't care if labour ruined the country.
You also have things like country's opening up their prisons and releasing their inmates and turning then into "refugees" because they know that some idiot western country will be stupid enough to take them in.
It's these sorts of things, basically Human Nature, that liberal idealism/ utopianism "humanism" don't account for, and thus leads to them becoming tyrannical because they can't understand why their "perfect worldview" isn't working so it must be the fault of "racists" or some other evil collaborators etc.
I mean suffice to say I disagree entirely with your premise that the reason there are more black criminals is because of racism. It's simply because they commit more crimes for a variety of factors of which racism doesn't play a meaningful part. Attempts to make it more "fair" just lead to soft policing which we have seen ample evidence leads to a huge increase in crime and misery. If anything a more "discriminatory" police and justice system, eg putting heavily armed police into violent ethnic neighborhoods would save far more lives rather than the liberal approach now of letting them all shoot each other.
Iirc more black Americans died last year alone because of crime than all of the black Americans that have ever been lynched in Americas history. We should have moved on from all this is pandering a long time ago.
I'm not really pro universal suffrage so I don't really care about "democracy" in the way that you're talking about.
I think you are putting words in my mouth. I have no idea where asylum seekers came from. Did I say that? But I do believe there is a culture of racism in parts of the police and judiciary. I never suggested what the impact of that is though.
Original post by hotpud
I think you are putting words in my mouth.
I have no idea where asylum seekers came from. Did I say that?
But I do believe there is a culture of racism in parts of the police and judiciary. I never suggested what the impact of that is though.
I have no idea where asylum seekers came from. Did I say that?
But I do believe there is a culture of racism in parts of the police and judiciary. I never suggested what the impact of that is though.
I am walking through the logical stages of your argument you've made below where you say "you don't think it's a problem..." .
If you think I've missrepresented your views then please clarify where or how I've done so.
Your last two sentences are very odd. You said (emphasis added)
Original post by hotpud
You don't think it is a problem because you aren't on the end of the abuse. Others might somewhat disagree with that. Just because it isn't your problem doesn't mean it isn't a massive problem. It really is, especially around policing and justice. If you don't have a fair policing and justice system, you don't have a democracy.
I think it's clear you are strongly suggesting a negative impact here.
You seem to be quite evasise on this issue suddenly...
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