Why are British people proud of NHS?
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Original post by Trinculo
The NHS as become a cult and religion. It is loved and revered as no instrument of the state ever should be - especially one that isn't particularly good. The frankly cringeworthy way that the NHS and its staff are applauded and made unimpeachable is the problem.
"What about America?" is the stupidest argument possible. It essentially hinges on the entirely and obviously false assertion that anything that is not the NHS must be America. This conveniently ignores.....every other country on earth. It is the most common piece of left-wing fear porn that any attempt to reform the NHS will lead to people paying £2000 to get in an ambulance. Why is it impossible to believe that anything other than the NHS in it's current form would have such an outcome? There are better health outcomes in Spain than in the UK - and they do not have the NHS. In fact, the NHS is supposed to be so wonderful - yet not a single other country in the civilised world follows such a model.
"What about America?" is the stupidest argument possible. It essentially hinges on the entirely and obviously false assertion that anything that is not the NHS must be America. This conveniently ignores.....every other country on earth. It is the most common piece of left-wing fear porn that any attempt to reform the NHS will lead to people paying £2000 to get in an ambulance. Why is it impossible to believe that anything other than the NHS in it's current form would have such an outcome? There are better health outcomes in Spain than in the UK - and they do not have the NHS. In fact, the NHS is supposed to be so wonderful - yet not a single other country in the civilised world follows such a model.
The “frankly cringeworthy way that the NHS and its staff are applauded…” doesn’t happen as often, and I don’t think that people that agrees to the NHS’s existence necessarily engages in this tomfoolery. With recent happenings, I’d assume that it’s because of the doctors and nurses that they are applauding for rather than because it’s the NHS.
Another interesting point of discussion is your mention of “made unimpeachable” bit. I personally don’t see this happening with the NHS, since the NHS as a governmental body is susceptible to judicial reviews and whatever legal safeguards exists in the UK legal system. The amount of legal cases against NHS Trusts also indicates this. Furthermore, neither people or academics, think tanks, etc., are prohibited from criticising the NHS as it is nor to put forward improvements.
The reason why I purport the America argument as relevant is because the NHS is essentially a publicly-funded medical system. To put into perspective, the American system is on the other extreme end of that spectrum and thus, is mostly relevant.
What is stupid is your perception that because of the America argument being included, that means people that agrees with the NHS’s existence is against any shape of reform. We aren’t and I’m not.
In addition, Spain also is a publicly-funded medical system — difference being that it is decentralised. “…yet not a single other country in the civilised world follows such a model,” they are many other medical care systems in the world that are publicly-funded and gives similar effects. One is Australia, with the option of alternative private health insurance if you can afford it but they still have publicly-funded medical care. No other country names their system “NHS” but it is hard to deny that similar systems exist.
Original post by wifd149
The “frankly cringeworthy way that the NHS and its staff are applauded…” doesn’t happen as often, and I don’t think that people that agrees to the NHS’s existence necessarily engages in this tomfoolery. With recent happenings, I’d assume that it’s because of the doctors and nurses that they are applauding for rather than because it’s the NHS.
Another interesting point of discussion is your mention of “made unimpeachable” bit. I personally don’t see this happening with the NHS, since the NHS as a governmental body is susceptible to judicial reviews and whatever legal safeguards exists in the UK legal system. The amount of legal cases against NHS Trusts also indicates this. Furthermore, neither people or academics, think tanks, etc., are prohibited from criticising the NHS as it is nor to put forward improvements.
The reason why I purport the America argument as relevant is because the NHS is essentially a publicly-funded medical system. To put into perspective, the American system is on the other extreme end of that spectrum and thus, is mostly relevant.
What is stupid is your perception that because of the America argument being included, that means people that agrees with the NHS’s existence is against any shape of reform. We aren’t and I’m not.
In addition, Spain also is a publicly-funded medical system — difference being that it is decentralised. “…yet not a single other country in the civilised world follows such a model,” they are many other medical care systems in the world that are publicly-funded and gives similar effects. One is Australia, with the option of alternative private health insurance if you can afford it but they still have publicly-funded medical care. No other country names their system “NHS” but it is hard to deny that similar systems exist.
Another interesting point of discussion is your mention of “made unimpeachable” bit. I personally don’t see this happening with the NHS, since the NHS as a governmental body is susceptible to judicial reviews and whatever legal safeguards exists in the UK legal system. The amount of legal cases against NHS Trusts also indicates this. Furthermore, neither people or academics, think tanks, etc., are prohibited from criticising the NHS as it is nor to put forward improvements.
The reason why I purport the America argument as relevant is because the NHS is essentially a publicly-funded medical system. To put into perspective, the American system is on the other extreme end of that spectrum and thus, is mostly relevant.
What is stupid is your perception that because of the America argument being included, that means people that agrees with the NHS’s existence is against any shape of reform. We aren’t and I’m not.
In addition, Spain also is a publicly-funded medical system — difference being that it is decentralised. “…yet not a single other country in the civilised world follows such a model,” they are many other medical care systems in the world that are publicly-funded and gives similar effects. One is Australia, with the option of alternative private health insurance if you can afford it but they still have publicly-funded medical care. No other country names their system “NHS” but it is hard to deny that similar systems exist.
You are conflating the NHS with all "publicly-funded" systems. Most systems don't resemble the NHS in any way shape or form, with a mix of public and private payers, and many services insurance based and not necessarily free at the point of use. These are widely used in Europe, but is apparently too American and evil to be considered here, where the only option is to worship the NHS and give it unlimited money to deliver mediocre outcomes.
You know full well that there are two approaches to reforming the NHS. The left-wing way - which is to pump unlimited money into the state religion; and the right-wing way. The nature of the right-wing method is irrelevant, because no matter what it is, it will be decried as "destroying the NHS and turning it into America".
Original post by Trinculo
You are conflating the NHS with all "publicly-funded" systems. Most systems don't resemble the NHS in any way shape or form, with a mix of public and private payers, and many services insurance based and not necessarily free at the point of use. These are widely used in Europe, but is apparently too American and evil to be considered here, where the only option is to worship the NHS and give it unlimited money to deliver mediocre outcomes.
You know full well that there are two approaches to reforming the NHS. The left-wing way - which is to pump unlimited money into the state religion; and the right-wing way. The nature of the right-wing method is irrelevant, because no matter what it is, it will be decried as "destroying the NHS and turning it into America".
You know full well that there are two approaches to reforming the NHS. The left-wing way - which is to pump unlimited money into the state religion; and the right-wing way. The nature of the right-wing method is irrelevant, because no matter what it is, it will be decried as "destroying the NHS and turning it into America".
Medical state systems that use insurances don’t usually tax their citizens and other legal persons that applies for healthcare. The problem that tends to come with its opposite form (like “NHS”) is that the portioning of the funds for the national healthcare system is dependent on the government, unlike with health insurances where the funds allocated for it is already reserved for the medical care system as a whole right from the start. Leaving out tidbits that the country does subsidise costs for people in poverty, etc. The country that I’m thinking of at the top of my head with this is Switzerland. Left-wing tends to find that the government isn’t providing adequately to the NHS; not seeking to provide an unlimited supply of money to the NHS.
On the concept of “a mix of public and private payers,” if you consider how the UK government obtains its income, doesn’t it already have a similar effect? It’s interesting to see to what extent this appears to be the case for you though. To me, as I’ve stated, the apparent issue is in how the UK systems appropriates their funds as a whole (to other sectors) rather than finding that this issue only concerns healthcare; not necessarily in who pays for the NHS.
The argument that the right-wing puts forward is, I assume, that NHS should be privatised? I understand that any political affiliation has a range of opinions, whether it should be partly or fully privatised. I just find it not very persuasive in the UK’s specific situation because, for instance in the example you gave is Spain — its healthcare is decentralised because of its autonomous community policy articulated in its 1978 Constitution. To give a bit of background, it’s decentralised system is what was commonly cited as a reason for Spain’s success. Realistically the UK can employ this, but I don’t think that this was what the right-wing had in mind. Similarly, the fact that Switzerland has a “basic healthcare insurance” that all companies must legally provide to everyone and its government monitors this, gives me an impression that it is, on its face, essentially a healthcare tax for the nation’s healthcare system. Countries like France are not accounted for because it’s surprisingly somewhat similar to the US; you might still pay for perhaps €20/per night in the hospital bed even if you’ve had some insurance in advance. The costs are not as astronomical, but the NHS doesn’t tend to charge as much and some people needs the care.
Thing is how mediocre NHS is, is not only because of its lack of resources (money, doctors, etc.) but also in how faulty and unrefined its smaller technical systems are and whatnot. Assuming that this is what would have primarily caused people to experience service dissatisfaction with the NHS. An example is in the tort cases against Dr Hadiza Bawa-Garba which involved a patient’s death. A lengthy debate/discussion around the background, context, and pressures doctors work in was involved. Not to mention that in this case, the NHS Trust in question recognised that there was systematic failures and pressures which contributed to the death of the patient.
(edited 2 years ago)
i reckon it's one thing to support and be proud of the medical staff of the NHS but sorry, just cuz it's seemingly better than a privatised system like the US doesn't make the system top quality nor sufficient and as far as i'm concerned it's like comparing apples and oranges. well personally have lived in three countries now with universal healthcare and can safety say never have i experienced such horrendous wait times just to see a GP or have a simple procedure in Canada or Australia like i have in the UK; it's like whole different worlds.
As Joleee says, supporting and applauding many of the front line workers in the NHS is not remotely the same as supporting the bureaucratic and institutional monster that is the NHS itself.
Similarly we might support and applaud our nation of postmen and women who brave all weathers all year round to deliver our letters and parcels and who have to deal with aggressive dogs and other hazards, whilst at the same time we might not support the actual bureaucratic Post Office itself and might desire it's radical change.
The NHS, to my mind, has been unfit for purpose for many years and has imo been deliberately run down by successive governments to pave the way to introduce a totally private health care system such as they have in the USA. Making the NHS unfit for purpose steers more people (who can afford it) to private hospitals. Making life more onerous and difficult for NHS workers, failing to give them a decent salary etc, steers NHS workers to private hospitals where their conditions are far better. It's all a very divisive process.
For me, the NHS is now effectively owned and controlled by the all-powerful Pharmaceuticals who call the shots, and seem to utilise an ethos of ruthless control whereby GPs and medical staff must tow the party line or face loss of their jobs and careers. Even talking about any criticism of vaccines at present is likely to land a health worker in deep water and that is simply not an open, honest or healthy environment nor an acceptable situation in a free speech democracy. The NHS now, to my mind, are simply the front line sales force of Pharma drugs and treatments.
In the USA things have progressed badly along that track. Addictive opioids have been massively over-prescribed there as well as other addictive drugs. It's wrong.
I totally applaud many of the NHS workers esp those on the front line suffering incredible hardship and pressures which have been exacerbated by the pandemic. However my view is that they are all now caught up in this awful monster that is controlled by Pharmaceuticals and all their "useful idiots" down the food chain. Government mandates to force them to be vaccinated with mRNA treatments founded from Gene Therapy on pain of losing their jobs, are imo utterly disgusting and a real kick in the teeth for our hard working health workers.
The NHS needs now to be totally dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up and the appalling influence and control of Big Pharma needs to be severed. GPs need to be given the freedom back to treat their patients how they see fit, to prescribe the drugs and treatments how they see fit and not be constrained to put people on pre-chosen pathways of pills, potions and drugs that Pharma want to sell.
But these are vain hopes sadly. Pharma has become too powerful as has become evident throughout this pandemic. Trying to oppose them would be akin to trying to remove the Italian Mafia.
In summary I don't think that many people are in fact proud of the NHS in Britain. I think they are proud of what it used to be years ago when it was the envy of the world and older people in particular can't shake off that past nostalgia and face the current reality. My grandmother still talks about the electricity company being BT !
The NHS needs a radical redesign, the wasteful management layers removed, areas refocused and Pharma removed from the picture. imo.
Similarly we might support and applaud our nation of postmen and women who brave all weathers all year round to deliver our letters and parcels and who have to deal with aggressive dogs and other hazards, whilst at the same time we might not support the actual bureaucratic Post Office itself and might desire it's radical change.
The NHS, to my mind, has been unfit for purpose for many years and has imo been deliberately run down by successive governments to pave the way to introduce a totally private health care system such as they have in the USA. Making the NHS unfit for purpose steers more people (who can afford it) to private hospitals. Making life more onerous and difficult for NHS workers, failing to give them a decent salary etc, steers NHS workers to private hospitals where their conditions are far better. It's all a very divisive process.
For me, the NHS is now effectively owned and controlled by the all-powerful Pharmaceuticals who call the shots, and seem to utilise an ethos of ruthless control whereby GPs and medical staff must tow the party line or face loss of their jobs and careers. Even talking about any criticism of vaccines at present is likely to land a health worker in deep water and that is simply not an open, honest or healthy environment nor an acceptable situation in a free speech democracy. The NHS now, to my mind, are simply the front line sales force of Pharma drugs and treatments.
In the USA things have progressed badly along that track. Addictive opioids have been massively over-prescribed there as well as other addictive drugs. It's wrong.
I totally applaud many of the NHS workers esp those on the front line suffering incredible hardship and pressures which have been exacerbated by the pandemic. However my view is that they are all now caught up in this awful monster that is controlled by Pharmaceuticals and all their "useful idiots" down the food chain. Government mandates to force them to be vaccinated with mRNA treatments founded from Gene Therapy on pain of losing their jobs, are imo utterly disgusting and a real kick in the teeth for our hard working health workers.
The NHS needs now to be totally dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up and the appalling influence and control of Big Pharma needs to be severed. GPs need to be given the freedom back to treat their patients how they see fit, to prescribe the drugs and treatments how they see fit and not be constrained to put people on pre-chosen pathways of pills, potions and drugs that Pharma want to sell.
But these are vain hopes sadly. Pharma has become too powerful as has become evident throughout this pandemic. Trying to oppose them would be akin to trying to remove the Italian Mafia.
In summary I don't think that many people are in fact proud of the NHS in Britain. I think they are proud of what it used to be years ago when it was the envy of the world and older people in particular can't shake off that past nostalgia and face the current reality. My grandmother still talks about the electricity company being BT !
The NHS needs a radical redesign, the wasteful management layers removed, areas refocused and Pharma removed from the picture. imo.
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