Debate a patriarchy supporter/ anti feminist.
(I got rid of the original OP for greater clarity, apologies for any confusion)!
I Have seen a few threads or posts about feminism and attacking ideas of patriarchy. But I think that this topic is of course heavily one sided and would like to offer a different perspective. So if you want to hear the other side of the story Id like to have a friendly, good faith chat particularly amongst female users.
So to get the ball rolling I think that feminism of all descriptions and egalitarianism more broadly has been a disaster for society, primarily for the benefit of a few to control and manipulate society.
- the proudest achievement of feminism is possibly abortion the ability of a potential mother to "choose what to do with her body" (I would word it differently)
-A huge increase in government reliance and subsidies. Feminism could not exist without widescale government support.
- millions if broken families. Being born to a single mother massively disadvantages you in life esp if you are a boy
-Women tend to think emotively about things which leads to rash and unwise policy decisions.
-anthropologically speaking there is a reason why primitive societies were matriarchal and why successful societies were patriarchal ones.
The typical response to these criticisms is that these people need to get laid or hate women. But these ideas include people who have been married for decades and people who have had sex with hundreds of women (E.Michael Jones, Roosh V and Rollo Tommasi being some examples)... As well as most figures from history.
I Have seen a few threads or posts about feminism and attacking ideas of patriarchy. But I think that this topic is of course heavily one sided and would like to offer a different perspective. So if you want to hear the other side of the story Id like to have a friendly, good faith chat particularly amongst female users.
So to get the ball rolling I think that feminism of all descriptions and egalitarianism more broadly has been a disaster for society, primarily for the benefit of a few to control and manipulate society.
- the proudest achievement of feminism is possibly abortion the ability of a potential mother to "choose what to do with her body" (I would word it differently)
-A huge increase in government reliance and subsidies. Feminism could not exist without widescale government support.
- millions if broken families. Being born to a single mother massively disadvantages you in life esp if you are a boy
-Women tend to think emotively about things which leads to rash and unwise policy decisions.
-anthropologically speaking there is a reason why primitive societies were matriarchal and why successful societies were patriarchal ones.
The typical response to these criticisms is that these people need to get laid or hate women. But these ideas include people who have been married for decades and people who have had sex with hundreds of women (E.Michael Jones, Roosh V and Rollo Tommasi being some examples)... As well as most figures from history.
(edited 2 years ago)
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Also inb4
Spoiler
Original post by Napp
I see no reason to sympathise with incels.. no one owes them sex and if theyre too much of a weirdo to be able to woo but one girl thats their fault. Not womens and not societies, only them.
Sure anyone can in theory get laid with someone. That's not a particularly high bar.
But in answer to your point yes and no. Not that long ago it used to be the norm to get married and stay together with divorce a rarity. Now it is the complete opposite. And what's more the children who come from these broken homes are far more likely to have problems, go onto make the same mistakes as their parents and if they are Boys they are going to struggle without a positive male figure around and are basically raised like girls. So I do think society is to blame.
And sure whilst there are some men who are complete losers fail romantically through their own fault you also have the same thing happening with the most successful people in our society getting divorced and screwed over - Bezos, Brad Pitt, Kanye West, Elon Musk, Johnny Depp etc. And sure that may be for good reasons and these guys will have no problem with getting laid, but again if these guys struggle what chance does Joe average have?
But I think for the average man and woman things have not worked out well.
We often hear of the incels as young men who can't get laid but we seldom hear about the many many women in their forties and fifties who are alone and wondering why they can't find a good man after "discovering" themselves in their twenties and thirties.
How does your option B count as men who are incels?
And what are you wanting to discuss? You've hone from incels to broken homes, lack of male role models to celebrity divorces.
Why do you class the general public as 'average'? I'm certainly not, nor are my family and friends. Anyway, most people aren't that bothered about why Brad Pitt split with whoever; being a Hollywood actor has no relevance to the day-to-day. You can't blame a homogenous 'society' for what is an individual's life path and responsibilities.
And what are you wanting to discuss? You've hone from incels to broken homes, lack of male role models to celebrity divorces.
Why do you class the general public as 'average'? I'm certainly not, nor are my family and friends. Anyway, most people aren't that bothered about why Brad Pitt split with whoever; being a Hollywood actor has no relevance to the day-to-day. You can't blame a homogenous 'society' for what is an individual's life path and responsibilities.
Debate what?
I’m quite happy for men who can’t get their **** together to sit at home complaining about how unfair it is. They are no major loss to the dating scene.
I’m quite happy for men who can’t get their **** together to sit at home complaining about how unfair it is. They are no major loss to the dating scene.
Incels are only option A, not option B. Can't really be 'involuntarily celibate' if you've had sex with hundreds of women, can you?
Pretty much what Napp said. Incels don't deserve sex from people. They need to get a hold of themself, grow up and move on. There is more to life than sex and romance; the irony is that if they realised this and chilled the F out then they'd probably be more likely to get laid. 😂
Pretty much what Napp said. Incels don't deserve sex from people. They need to get a hold of themself, grow up and move on. There is more to life than sex and romance; the irony is that if they realised this and chilled the F out then they'd probably be more likely to get laid. 😂
i would suggest you research incels and use the actual definition of incel rather than making up your own definitions otherwise you're going to confuse users on what the subject is and indeed you already have; already you have confused the only four users who have bothered to respond to you.
(after you're done your research and learned the definition of incel perhaps you can provide a source as well)
group B is obviously not 'incel' because they are not involuntary celibate.
group A is just as problematic: 'only real problem with the system is that they personally can't have sex because of whatever reason usually because they're losers'. i don't even know what you're trying to say here
btw you know there's a difference between a 'loser' and an incel, right? incels aren't just 'losers'; they have a specific ideology, an absolute hated towards women who then live in echo chambers on the internet sharing their misogynistic ideology amongst themselves. again, i encourage you to research this before you respond otherwise you might be saying you sympathise with an ideology you actually (hopefully) do not.
(after you're done your research and learned the definition of incel perhaps you can provide a source as well)
group B is obviously not 'incel' because they are not involuntary celibate.
group A is just as problematic: 'only real problem with the system is that they personally can't have sex because of whatever reason usually because they're losers'. i don't even know what you're trying to say here
btw you know there's a difference between a 'loser' and an incel, right? incels aren't just 'losers'; they have a specific ideology, an absolute hated towards women who then live in echo chambers on the internet sharing their misogynistic ideology amongst themselves. again, i encourage you to research this before you respond otherwise you might be saying you sympathise with an ideology you actually (hopefully) do not.My definition is fine. See above from Google search.
Additionally, technically any single man who does not want to be is "involuntary celibate" even if they have had relationships in the past.
Original post by Starship Trooper
My definition is fine. See above from Google search.
Additionally, technically any single man who does not want to be is "involuntary celibate" even if they have had relationships in the past.
My definition is fine. See above from Google search.
Additionally, technically any single man who does not want to be is "involuntary celibate" even if they have had relationships in the past.
Not so sure. Your definition is far broader than what everyone else understands to be an incel.
If you want to debate about 'B' then that's fine, but almost no one else would regard them as incels.
The common understanding is men who can't get laid and become very bitter towards women. Not men who simply choose not to be in a relationship or haven't found someone they'd like to be in a relationship with.
Original post by DSilva
Not so sure. Your definition is far broader than what everyone else understands to be an incel.
If you want to debate about 'B' then that's fine, but almost no one else would regard them as incels.
The common understanding is men who can't get laid and become very bitter towards women. Not men who simply choose not to be in a relationship or haven't found someone they'd like to be in a relationship with.
If you want to debate about 'B' then that's fine, but almost no one else would regard them as incels.
The common understanding is men who can't get laid and become very bitter towards women. Not men who simply choose not to be in a relationship or haven't found someone they'd like to be in a relationship with.
This. Wikipedia's definition sums it up nicely:
"An incel is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterised by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people."
This is what people usually mean when they say "incel". Nobody has any issue with the people who just can't find a romantic or sexual partner. It's the accompanying misogyny, hatred, etc, that comes with it that people take issue with.
Original post by SHallowvale
This. Wikipedia's definition sums it up nicely:
"An incel is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterised by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people."
This is what people usually mean when they say "incel". Nobody has any issue with the people who just can't find a romantic or sexual partner. It's the accompanying misogyny, hatred, etc, that comes with it that people take issue with.
"An incel is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterised by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people."
This is what people usually mean when they say "incel". Nobody has any issue with the people who just can't find a romantic or sexual partner. It's the accompanying misogyny, hatred, etc, that comes with it that people take issue with.
Exactly. I've had times in the past where I wanted to find a partner, with no luck (and now do thankfully have one) but I certainly was never an incel. As I'm sure almost everyone has.
The bitterness or even hatred towards women is a fundamental part of it.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by SHallowvale
This is what people usually mean when they say "incel". Nobody has any issue with the people who just can't find a romantic or sexual partner. It's the accompanying misogyny, hatred, etc, that comes with it that people take issue with.
True, but a continued increase in the former will likely lead to an increase in the extremists of the latter.
Original post by tomclarky
True, but a continued increase in the former will likely lead to an increase in the extremists of the latter.
Is it not just another example of the fact that in this world, there are little groups of very angry people?
Original post by hotpud
Is it not just another example of the fact that in this world, there are little groups of very angry people?
Definitely. Brexit voters, Islamic extremists, Incels and Feminists. There's pockets of society that feel like the system isn't playing out fairly and they feel entitled to more. We can politcise them or we can find practical solutions?
(edited 2 years ago)
@SHallowvale
@jollee
@Crazed cat lady
@Surnia
@DSilva
@Napp
See the OP , hopefully this is clearer. Apologies for any confusion.
(I stand by my definition of incel and hopefully by discussing the above it will become clearer why)
@jollee
@Crazed cat lady
@Surnia
@DSilva
@Napp
See the OP , hopefully this is clearer. Apologies for any confusion.
(I stand by my definition of incel and hopefully by discussing the above it will become clearer why)
(edited 2 years ago)
So having started a thread about how you are sympathetic to incels but got your definition of incel wrong, you’ve turned it into a tiresome man blames feminism for everything thread?
Original post by Crazed cat lady
So having started a thread about how you are sympathetic to incels but got your definition of incel wrong, you’ve turned it into a tiresome man blames feminism for everything thread?
Yes.
Original post by tomclarky
Definitely. Brexit voters, Islamic extremists, Incels and Feminists. There's pockets of society that feel like the system isn't playing out fairly and they feel entitled to more. We can politcise them or we can find practical solutions?
brexit voters got their way
islamic extremists want a caliphate, theres no way of finding a middle ground
incels believe that society owes them hot women, again, no solution there bar hiring out hookers to them
Not sure why feminists are included on here though, merely thinking that the sexes should be equal is not exactly far flung like the others nor is it something that is really comparable to the other subgroups
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