Lord Browne, don't you think abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted?
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Simplicity
Well-read? So do you understand QM? GR? SR? or even basic stuff like Black Scholes equation?
It's unclear if you mean atom in the mathematical sense or atom in the physical sense.
In either case, science has been superior in showing something exists, philosophy can never do that. All philosophy is debating something pointlessly in till a physicist settles it, case and point origin of the universe we currently see. Countless philosophical arguments, but at the end of the day physics solved it.
Don't get me started on free will debates as pretty much Conway has done more, then any philosopher to getting the anwsers is there free will.
Seriously, philosophy was once useful, then it became leftovers.
Real philosophers, the real philosophers died 200 years ago when they couldn't keep up with the pace of science, now all we have is philosophers of language.
It's unclear if you mean atom in the mathematical sense or atom in the physical sense.
In either case, science has been superior in showing something exists, philosophy can never do that. All philosophy is debating something pointlessly in till a physicist settles it, case and point origin of the universe we currently see. Countless philosophical arguments, but at the end of the day physics solved it.
Don't get me started on free will debates as pretty much Conway has done more, then any philosopher to getting the anwsers is there free will.
Seriously, philosophy was once useful, then it became leftovers.
Real philosophers, the real philosophers died 200 years ago when they couldn't keep up with the pace of science, now all we have is philosophers of language.
I mean well read in a literary sense. The Great Gatsby, Yeats - but you knew that, you just felt like pointing out my ignorance of mathematics. I will do the equivalent.
And explain this:"All philosophy is debating something pointlessly in till a physicist settles it, case and point origin of the universe we currently see."
From a purely Economic stand point, arts and humanities are of little value. The two largest areas of global economic investment are Energy and Technology and both are rooted exclusively in Science.
The argument is that Arts and Humanities teach people 'how to think' but in large parts, this is the job of Schools! not Universities. The fact that Universities have had to take on this responsibility is in large part due to failings of our secondary tier of education, thankfully this is largely being rectified as greater understanding on teaching and learning has developed rapidly over the past 5 years. Schools are now finally starting to teach students how to think. An example of this is the change in 2006 of the national curriculum in science. Thus Arts and Humanities role as a progressive for society is largely redundant whilst from an economic standpoint it is inconsequential thus of all disciplines Arts and Humanities shouldn't be prioritised.
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
The argument is that Arts and Humanities teach people 'how to think' but in large parts, this is the job of Schools! not Universities. The fact that Universities have had to take on this responsibility is in large part due to failings of our secondary tier of education, thankfully this is largely being rectified as greater understanding on teaching and learning has developed rapidly over the past 5 years. Schools are now finally starting to teach students how to think. An example of this is the change in 2006 of the national curriculum in science. Thus Arts and Humanities role as a progressive for society is largely redundant whilst from an economic standpoint it is inconsequential thus of all disciplines Arts and Humanities shouldn't be prioritised.
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
(edited 13 years ago)
Planar
I mean well read in a literary sense. The Great Gatsby, Yeats - but you knew that, you just felt like pointing out my ignorance of mathematics. I will do the equivalent.
And explain this:"All philosophy is debating something pointlessly in till a physicist settles it, case and point origin of the universe we currently see."
And explain this:"All philosophy is debating something pointlessly in till a physicist settles it, case and point origin of the universe we currently see."
Then you aren't well read.
Well, look at you. You try to say I'm thinker and that I'm a philosopher, however you know nothing about the universe. All you know is language, that's all philosophy is now, the study of language.
Richard Feynman comes to my mind.
Simplicity
Then you aren't well read.
Well, look at you. You try to say I'm thinker and that I'm a philosopher, however you know nothing about the universe. All you know is language, that's all philosophy is now, the study of language.
Richard Feynman comes to my mind.
Well, look at you. You try to say I'm thinker and that I'm a philosopher, however you know nothing about the universe. All you know is language, that's all philosophy is now, the study of language.
Richard Feynman comes to my mind.
Stop being an elitist prat and explain it.
Complex Simplicity
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
What are we going to sell the proles if they aren't interested in art and fashion and culture?
Shall we sell them proofs?
(edited 13 years ago)
Philosopher-of-sorts
What are we going to sell the proles if they aren't interested in art and fashion and culture?
Shall we sell them proofs?
Shall we sell them proofs?
The key word is 'sell.' All who want to do such disciplines should be entitled to do so, just at their own expense.
Complex Simplicity
The key word is 'sell.' All who want to do such disciplines should be entitled to do so, just at their own expense.
I wasn't referring to degrees. I was referring to the general idea that it is some sort of natural economic progression to limit arts and humanities.. Economies are built on art of one form or another, as well as science. To limit society to a more fully science-based approach would actually limit economic potential in some ways.
(edited 13 years ago)
Siobhanbligh
the fact that you are both making these divisions between subjects that are always closely related, you know cos they are about ermmm us and the world, shows me that you both know sweet FA about education. live and let live
Fallacy
Complex Simplicity
The key word is 'sell.' All who want to do such disciplines should be entitled to do so, just at their own expense.
Considerations should be taken if it benefits more than just themselves. I.e, society as a whole.
(edited 13 years ago)
Philosopher-of-sorts
I wasn't referring to degrees. I was referring to the general idea that arts and humanities are useless. Economies are built on art of one form or another, as well as science. To limit society to a more fully science-based approach would actually limit economic potential in some ways.
No one said that the general idea of arts and humanities are useless. This debate was about whether, in light of the spending review, subjects which contribute little to society should be heavily subsidised. The OP seems to be under the impression that such disciplines will produce moral citizens, however, this isn't the role of university, it is the role of schools.
The-Real-One
Considerations should be taken if it benefits more than just themselves. I.e, society as a whole.
This is the role of schools:
AIMS OF THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM:
The National Curriculum has three statutory aims. It should enable all young people to become:
- Successful learners who enjoy learning, make progress and achieve
- Confident individuals who are able to live safe, healthy and fulfilling lives
- Responsible citizens who make a positive contribution to society.
source:
http://curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-3-and-4/aims-values-and-purposes/aims/index.aspx
Complex Simplicity
From a purely Economic stand point, arts and humanities are of little value. The two largest areas of global economic investment are Energy and Technology and both are rooted exclusively in Science.
The argument is that Arts and Humanities teach people 'how to think' but in large parts, this is the job of Schools! not Universities. The fact that Universities have had to take on this responsibility is in large part due to failings of our secondary tier of education, thankfully this is largely being rectified as greater understanding on teaching and learning has developed rapidly over the past 5 years. Schools are now finally starting to teach students how to think. An example of this is the change in 2006 of the national curriculum in science. Thus Arts and Humanities role as a progressive for society is largely redundant whilst from an economic standpoint it is inconsequential thus of all disciplines Arts and Humanities shouldn't be prioritised.
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
The argument is that Arts and Humanities teach people 'how to think' but in large parts, this is the job of Schools! not Universities. The fact that Universities have had to take on this responsibility is in large part due to failings of our secondary tier of education, thankfully this is largely being rectified as greater understanding on teaching and learning has developed rapidly over the past 5 years. Schools are now finally starting to teach students how to think. An example of this is the change in 2006 of the national curriculum in science. Thus Arts and Humanities role as a progressive for society is largely redundant whilst from an economic standpoint it is inconsequential thus of all disciplines Arts and Humanities shouldn't be prioritised.
I reject the statement that 'abandoning the Arts & Humanities is short sighted' it is simply progression, in fact one could call it natural selection.
Why is education just about economics? are our lives just driven to fulfil some economic target? I went into education so that i could learn and gain knowledge about the world i live in and who i am not to fulfil a sector of the British economy. Education is about bringing out who you are from within and bettering yourself and hopefully to help better society but not necessarily through economic gain but through ideas you learn through higher education.
The reason universities have expanded so massively is not the failure of schools. It is because the private sector has stoppped training the population for the roles it requires in the economy and instead the state has picked up this tab. The Arts are a huge industry in this country that contributes a massive amount to our economy as well as the personal enjoyment of millions of people. It is something like for every pound invested in the Arts £2.20 is created.
Basically you are saying let us submit to our capitalist masters and let explotation rein.
Complex Simplicity
This is the role of schools:
AIMS OF THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM:
The National Curriculum has three statutory aims. It should enable all young people to become:
- Successful learners who enjoy learning, make progress and achieve
- Confident individuals who are able to live safe, healthy and fulfilling lives
- Responsible citizens who make a positive contribution to society.
AIMS OF THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM:
The National Curriculum has three statutory aims. It should enable all young people to become:
- Successful learners who enjoy learning, make progress and achieve
- Confident individuals who are able to live safe, healthy and fulfilling lives
- Responsible citizens who make a positive contribution to society.
because schools have an aim to better society as a whole means that universities shouldn't? It is an education system, the different stages link together, you are allowed to jump off at certain points but you should also be able to stay on as long as you like. This systems should be to help create a more fulfilled individual and to help society as a whole
Complex Simplicity
No one said that the general idea of arts and humanities are useless. This debate was about whether, in light of the spending review, subjects which contribute little to society should be heavily subsidised. The OP seems to be under the impression that such disciplines will produce moral citizens, however, this isn't the role of university, it is the role of schools.
Sorry, I misphrased and fast-edited, check my edit for what i actually meant
It may well be true that arts are over subsidised, but if we consider that the UK Film Council earned back, what, £6 per £1 they put in, it seems a lot of arts subsidies are entirely justified economically. I'm not sure about moral citizens, not really my area.
(edited 13 years ago)
What has arts ever done for the UK? I mean, Shakespeare, Elgar, et cetera, creative minds that they were did a lot for this country, but they were good enough to make money so that the taxpayer didn't need to pay.
Example: Tracy Emin! Now I'm not saying that the taxpayer paid for him, but I certainly wouldn't support it if we were asked to give taskpayers money for him to have "an unmade bed"!!??
Example: Tracy Emin! Now I'm not saying that the taxpayer paid for him, but I certainly wouldn't support it if we were asked to give taskpayers money for him to have "an unmade bed"!!??
JMG89
Why is education just about economics? are our lives just driven to fulfil some economic target? I went into education so that i could learn and gain knowledge about the world i live in and who i am not to fulfil a sector of the British economy. Education is about bringing out who you are from within and bettering yourself and hopefully to help better society but not necessarily through economic gain but through ideas you learn through higher education.
The reason universities have expanded so massively is not the failure of schools. It is because the private sector has stoppped training the population for the roles it requires in the economy and instead the state has picked up this tab. The Arts are a huge industry in this country that contributes a massive amount to our economy as well as the personal enjoyment of millions of people. It is something like for every pound invested in the Arts £2.20 is created.
Basically you are saying let us submit to our capitalist masters and let explotation rein.
The reason universities have expanded so massively is not the failure of schools. It is because the private sector has stoppped training the population for the roles it requires in the economy and instead the state has picked up this tab. The Arts are a huge industry in this country that contributes a massive amount to our economy as well as the personal enjoyment of millions of people. It is something like for every pound invested in the Arts £2.20 is created.
Basically you are saying let us submit to our capitalist masters and let explotation rein.
It isn't, paying for it is! This is a spending review we're talking about, of cause economics is going to play a large part in this. The reality is, when there isn't enough money to go around, what is necessary is prioritised over what is desirable. Science is necessary, Arts isn't. It is as simple as that. If Arts were abolished, the country would be far better at coping than if Sciences were abolished. Does this mean that arts are useless, no, but it does mean that they are lower down the pecking order than sciences.
As for your comment about the arts being a huge industry in this country, so what! Don't you understand that in a recession, the nation needs to sell products outside its borders! Do you really think people are going to pay billions of pounds for the writings of 21 century philosophers? Do you really think the general public even care?! Or do they want the latest mobile phone or the car that drives itself? Do you really think whole governments care about the musings John Smith and Jane Small with their BA from *insert token Red Brick University* about Why we are here? Or do they want the next energy resource that will produce more electricity for less cost, or act as a military deterrent. Science Degrees are necessary, Art degrees are not.
(edited 13 years ago)
JMG89
because schools have an aim to better society as a whole means that universities shouldn't? It is an education system, the different stages link together, you are allowed to jump off at certain points but you should also be able to stay on as long as you like. This systems should be to help create a more fulfilled individual and to help society as a whole
Precisely. Universities are institutions of higher learning not tools for social engineering. Again let me reiterate, it is not the job of Universities to produce moral citizens.
Lofty
Good arts pay for themselves, I see no reason to fund things that cannot exist without financial help.
You're not only talking about good arts here. You're talking about policy makers, people who decide where your taxes go to and govern your countries. What does politics come under at university?
And pray tell me, how is making these subjects only available to people who have money and therefore might not have the social experience to understand the pledge and day to day life of the less well offs going to improve the world we live in?
'Lord Brown' please define strategic? this is a typical political response that has no substance to it whatsoever!
And the idea of funding what businesses and the economy needs most at this specific moment in time is flawed too in the sense that their needs evolves all the time. It's so similar to paying the previous generations' pensions, demography varies, so does economy. we might not have enough plumbers now, but by the time this is assessed, and translated into fundings and trained people, you might be in need of doctors, or teachers!
DirtyPrettyThing
What has arts ever done for the UK? I mean, Shakespeare, Elgar, et cetera, creative minds that they were did a lot for this country, but they were good enough to make money so that the taxpayer didn't need to pay.
Example: Tracy Emin! Now I'm not saying that the taxpayer paid for him, but I certainly wouldn't support it if we were asked to give taskpayers money for him to have "an unmade bed"!!??
Example: Tracy Emin! Now I'm not saying that the taxpayer paid for him, but I certainly wouldn't support it if we were asked to give taskpayers money for him to have "an unmade bed"!!??
her
clearly, you know nothing about the world of art.
Philosopher-of-sorts
Sorry, I misphrased and fast-edited, check my edit for what i actually meant
It may well be true that arts are over subsidised, but if we consider that the UK Film Council earned back, what, £6 per £1 they put in, it seems a lot of arts subsidies are entirely justified economically. I'm not sure about moral citizens, not really my area.
It may well be true that arts are over subsidised, but if we consider that the UK Film Council earned back, what, £6 per £1 they put in, it seems a lot of arts subsidies are entirely justified economically. I'm not sure about moral citizens, not really my area.
Then a degree in film should be subsidised by the UK Film Council, just like a degree in medicine in subsidised by the NHS. Other degrees which are unrelated don't produce such a profit thus shouldn't justify exorbitant subsidies. This ideally would be regulated to the extent that only the optimum number of potential students in such a field would be subsidised.
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