Responsibility of a man to care for a child
Scroll to see replies
Original post by Anoodles
Exactly - regardless of however much birth control was employed - there's often a minor chance for pregnancy. At the risk of sounding cliche, when the bun is in the oven it's already being baked - should worry about it beforehand. Having talked to some of my guy friends about this - I do think it's a very controversial topic (one even thought it would be within his rights to grind up morning after pills and dose her with them!)...Some people see abortion almost as another form of birth control - I think it's a personal choice that people have to make - and that No, a guy shouldn't be able to make a woman have an abortion (yes he can suggest it, argue for it) but different people have different beliefs i.e. not countenancing abortion/ thinking it's wrong and thus then choosing to keep it - in this case the choice has been made from conception really if you hold those beliefs. - So even if you both had decided not to try for children - when it's conceived it's already been set in motion - at the end of the day I think if you're prepared to have sex with someone then you have to accept any eventualities that come out of it (bearing in mind that other than the pleasure/intimacy - procreation is the main force behind sex), so yes they should have to pay child support - unless you can deny being part of it's conception, than it's your child, and you should have to take responsibility for it . Though I do think it's sad if a guy did want to keep his baby, and the woman pregnant with his child decided to get rid of it - as he would not really be able to nay say this.
I know, I completely agree with you. The couple should definitely discuss it, but I think since the woman actually has to either abort or keep it for nine months, it is ultimately her decision in the end! When you chose to have sex, you know the risks and have to take responsibility for that. If you don't like that idea, then don't have sex!
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
You had an equal choice to have sex which resulted in pregnancy, therefore you should be equally as responsible for the child support arrangements.
True, but they don't both have equal responsibility in whether that pregnancy goes to term. Between conception, and being 24 weeks along the woman has complete (legal) control over whether or not she remains pregnant. The man does not. Therefore I would argue that due to her increased rights the woman has increased responsibility for the pregnancy.
You can't expect people to have the same responsibilities for a situation if the amount of control they had in the situation isn't equal.
(edited 12 years ago)
I believe when you consent to sex (protected, unprotected - both have risks) then you also consent to taking on the consequences of that. I appreciate the argument that a man doesn't have a choice in an abortion, but it's fairly easy for a man who doesn't want a child to say "get rid of it;" it's not so easy for the woman carrying that child to do so. As soon as a woman realises she's pregnant, chances are she'll feel like the child is part of her and she has a responsibility for it.
Sure, equality is important, all things equal. Woman should have equality in the work place, where they both have the same qualifications, the average woman should be equal to the average man when it comes to evacuating a sinking ship, a couple should pay for their fair share of meals, etc. But in the case of abortion, the two aren't actually 'equal' because they're not both in the same circumstances. A man has created a child - so has the woman, but the crucial difference is that she's also carrying it, which has a pretty big emotional impact on her. In that sense, I don't think it's fair to say that a man shouldn't have to pay child support, because the woman had an opportunity to abort it.
Sure, equality is important, all things equal. Woman should have equality in the work place, where they both have the same qualifications, the average woman should be equal to the average man when it comes to evacuating a sinking ship, a couple should pay for their fair share of meals, etc. But in the case of abortion, the two aren't actually 'equal' because they're not both in the same circumstances. A man has created a child - so has the woman, but the crucial difference is that she's also carrying it, which has a pretty big emotional impact on her. In that sense, I don't think it's fair to say that a man shouldn't have to pay child support, because the woman had an opportunity to abort it.
Original post by Stratos
If I don't want a baby and had a condom on then I have no responsibility for the child, however that does not mean I will not make the decision out of my own freedom to care for it.
Well, your freedom to decide whether you support the child or not doesn't matter because you're legally obliged to anyway.
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
You had an equal choice to have sex which resulted in pregnancy, therefore you should be equally as responsible for the child support arrangements.
I can predictably point out that the woman gets two options to choose in this scenario and the male gets only one (The much less critical one I might add).
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
You could equally argue that if the woman didn't want children and used contraception properly they shouldn't have to raise the child either. Unfortunately life has its little surprises, just because you didn't want something to happen shouldn't be an excuse to run away. Sometimes you've just got to suck it up and deal with things despite not liking the situation.
Firstly, I'm asking this in a situation where the male has used contraception OR has been explicitly told that the female was on contraception, AND IT HAS BEEN AGREED ON that they both do not want a child
A woman has the ability to choose whether or not she wants to have the child. Would you consider a woman using this right as "running away?"
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
It's the woman's body, they have to carry the child for 9 months, the man had very little input so ultimately it should be the woman's decision.
And what is 9 months when the father has to support the child for the rest of his life, or at least 18 years? It's miniscule, so your logic is ****ing stupid.
Original post by AlmostChicGeek
This.
Both men and women know the potential risk of having a baby when having sex, so they both should take responsibility.
Both men and women know the potential risk of having a baby when having sex, so they both should take responsibility.
Again, the man has acted "responsibly" in this instance, and has taken all sensible precautions. If a woman is able to escape the "responsibility" of having to raise a child, then why shouldn't a man, IF he has taken reasonable precautions and his feelings were known PRIOR to the female getting pregnant?
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
It's the woman's body, they have to carry the child for 9 months, the man had very little input so ultimately it should be the woman's decision.
Before you go on about "but women want equality so men should have just as much of a right" I don't want equality in this instance, I don't think men and women should be treated as total equals. The woman should be able to overrule the man for the simple fact that it's her that has to deal with looking after it while it's growing and giving birth etc.
Before you go on about "but women want equality so men should have just as much of a right" I don't want equality in this instance, I don't think men and women should be treated as total equals. The woman should be able to overrule the man for the simple fact that it's her that has to deal with looking after it while it's growing and giving birth etc.
If it's ONLY the woman's decision, then shouldn't she bear the responsibility as well?
Original post by Dr Good Manners
Yup. If you're happy to press her, you automatically forfeit the right to cry about paying child support if she chooses to pop it out. The childs needs comes first, not yours.
Only time you can deny child support is if you weren't pressing her, but she fapped you in your sleep, caught the contents in a test tube then did the business in the toilets and got pregnant as a result. Morally anyway. I have no idea what the legal raminfications of a scenario like that would be
Only time you can deny child support is if you weren't pressing her, but she fapped you in your sleep, caught the contents in a test tube then did the business in the toilets and got pregnant as a result. Morally anyway. I have no idea what the legal raminfications of a scenario like that would be
What?
Original post by psychedelica
Just like the man knows there is a risk the woman could get pregnant when they have sex, he should also accept there's a chance she doesn't want to get an abortion if she gets pregnant, even if they agreed they don't want a child.
My point was, why should he then bear responsibility IF he had taken reasonable precautions and if they had the agreement then?
Original post by Anoodles
Exactly - regardless of however much birth control was employed - there's often a minor chance for pregnancy. At the risk of sounding cliche, when the bun is in the oven it's already being baked - should worry about it beforehand. Having talked to some of my guy friends about this - I do think it's a very controversial topic (one even thought it would be within his rights to grind up morning after pills and dose her with them!)...Some people see abortion almost as another form of birth control - I think it's a personal choice that people have to make - and that No, a guy shouldn't be able to make a woman have an abortion (yes he can suggest it, argue for it) but different people have different beliefs i.e. not countenancing abortion/ thinking it's wrong and thus then choosing to keep it - in this case the choice has been made from conception really if you hold those beliefs. - So even if you both had decided not to try for children - when it's conceived it's already been set in motion - at the end of the day I think if you're prepared to have sex with someone then you have to accept any eventualities that come out of it (bearing in mind that other than the pleasure/intimacy - procreation is the main force behind sex), so yes they should have to pay child support - unless you can deny being part of it's conception, than it's your child, and you should have to take responsibility for it . Though I do think it's sad if a guy did want to keep his baby, and the woman pregnant with his child decided to get rid of it - as he would not really be able to nay say this.
There's a minor chance that I may get into a car crash while driving. If I have taken reasonable precautions then why should I bear the responsibility? I'm not challenging the rights of a woman to abort/not abort, I'm simply saying that when an agreement has been made and reasonable precautions have been taken, when the worse case scenario happens and the woman decides to go against the agreement then why should the man ALSO be responsible for taking care of the child?
No, I don't think so, at least in the particular set of circumstances decribed:
(a) they have explicitly agreed that if sex results in conception, the pregnancy should be terminated.
(b) he is the one who has taken precautions (the talk here was of male contraception).
(c) after conceiving she has reneged on the agreement in (a).
Under that set of circumstances, I don't feel that he is morally responsible for the consequences, the financial liabilities, of her unilaterally deciding to carry the child to term.
(a) they have explicitly agreed that if sex results in conception, the pregnancy should be terminated.
(b) he is the one who has taken precautions (the talk here was of male contraception).
(c) after conceiving she has reneged on the agreement in (a).
Under that set of circumstances, I don't feel that he is morally responsible for the consequences, the financial liabilities, of her unilaterally deciding to carry the child to term.
Original post by SpicyStrawberry
No thanks, I don't feel the need to justify myself to you. I also knew you would pick up on the "in this instance" part. You're so predictable. Until men get pregnant they shouldn't have as much right to abort as the woman.
I predicted that too, when I was reading the comments. So obvious, isn't it? Males on here keep going on and on and on about how horrible us women are. How we cheat them and deceive them and have such horrible views. There's got to be a lot of sexual repression going on here, I think some TSRian males need to get a girlfwend.
Anyway, I agree with your point. Only, I don't think it's a matter of equality, just difference. Equality isn't synonymous of similarity and I think for men to expect us to ignore all differences such as the obvious bigger role we play in pregnancy is ridiculous. To do so would be treating gender difference with unequal consideration.
Original post by SophiaKeuning
I predicted that too, when I was reading the comments. So obvious, isn't it? Males on here keep going on and on and on about how horrible us women are. How we cheat them and deceive them and have such horrible views. There's got to be a lot of sexual repression going on here, I think some TSRian males need to get a girlfwend.
Anyway, I agree with your point. Only, I don't think it's a matter of equality, just difference. Equality isn't synonymous of similarity and I think for men to expect us to ignore all differences such as the obvious bigger role we play in pregnancy is ridiculous. To do so would be treating gender difference with unequal consideration.
Anyway, I agree with your point. Only, I don't think it's a matter of equality, just difference. Equality isn't synonymous of similarity and I think for men to expect us to ignore all differences such as the obvious bigger role we play in pregnancy is ridiculous. To do so would be treating gender difference with unequal consideration.
Huh?
I don't think women are horrible, or any worse or cheat or deceive people any more than men do. I can't TRULY speak for every male on the forum, but I don't think that most men hold the view that you "perceive" them to have
No one is asking you to ignore the differences between males and females in child conception, gestation and rearing. What I am simply asking is whether how society views certain concepts relating to this are equitable
Bah. I hate this argument that it's equally a man and womans fault.
The man cannot choose to get rid of the baby. A woman can. The decision is totally down to the woman, so yes, they are both equally at fault, guilty or what have you, of the conception, but anything after that is purely the woman's responsibility. In my opinion, a man should be able to sign away all rights to the child within say, 18 weeks and be free of child support and other such things, with the caveat of course, that he is not in any way legally recognised as the father apart from on the Brith Certificate.
The man cannot choose to get rid of the baby. A woman can. The decision is totally down to the woman, so yes, they are both equally at fault, guilty or what have you, of the conception, but anything after that is purely the woman's responsibility. In my opinion, a man should be able to sign away all rights to the child within say, 18 weeks and be free of child support and other such things, with the caveat of course, that he is not in any way legally recognised as the father apart from on the Brith Certificate.
It takes two people to have intercourse. No one form of contraception is 100% effective - condoms and femdoms break, pills can be ineffective, IUDs can expel, vasectomies can fail.
If a man has chosen with full consent to have intercourse with a woman, he is effectively saying that he consents to taking part in an activity which can end in the conception of a child. IMO abortion shouldn't even be an option but I imagine it probably always be - legally it should only be available if both partners are willing for this to happen and have signed consent. If the man cannot be traced for consent purposes, then maybe consent from the father ought to be waived.
If either partner chooses not to be invovled or signs the consent form for an abortion (but the other partner refuses), the baby ought to be given to the parent who does want the baby. The other parent should hold legal responsibilty for the child and pay an amount of support to the upbringing parent. If they are willing to give up all parental rights then they could be freed from paying child support. To be quite frank if a dad's not willing to support his own child that he played a part in making, he can't be much of a dad and is probably better out of the child's life.
Rather then the child benefit we have at present we should have an "absent parent allowance", e.g. a benefit paid to lone parents not receiving CSA and widows on certain conditions, and a "low wage allowance" paid to couples who have a joint low wage. Both should be paid in the form of vouchers that would directly benefit the child and pay for essentials.
If a man has chosen with full consent to have intercourse with a woman, he is effectively saying that he consents to taking part in an activity which can end in the conception of a child. IMO abortion shouldn't even be an option but I imagine it probably always be - legally it should only be available if both partners are willing for this to happen and have signed consent. If the man cannot be traced for consent purposes, then maybe consent from the father ought to be waived.
If either partner chooses not to be invovled or signs the consent form for an abortion (but the other partner refuses), the baby ought to be given to the parent who does want the baby. The other parent should hold legal responsibilty for the child and pay an amount of support to the upbringing parent. If they are willing to give up all parental rights then they could be freed from paying child support. To be quite frank if a dad's not willing to support his own child that he played a part in making, he can't be much of a dad and is probably better out of the child's life.
Rather then the child benefit we have at present we should have an "absent parent allowance", e.g. a benefit paid to lone parents not receiving CSA and widows on certain conditions, and a "low wage allowance" paid to couples who have a joint low wage. Both should be paid in the form of vouchers that would directly benefit the child and pay for essentials.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by ckingalt
I'll tell you what. You make a list of all the instances in which you want equality and I'll make a list of all the one's in which I don't want you to have it. Then we will negotiate. Your other option is to be consistent regardless as to if the particular situation benefits you or not.
The whole issue of abortion is a matter of equality. The woman can't make the man do anything with regards to his body that he doesn't want, and the man can't make the woman undergo a procedure if she doesn't want to. Abortion is not a light matter, it can be tremendously traumatic for the woman and there is no way the man should be allowed to make the woman go through with it if she doesn't want to. Any alternative involving the man having some kind of 'veto' over the child's existence would essentially rob the woman of control over what happens to her own body.
Quick Reply
Latest
Trending
Last reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 3 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 3 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
