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OCR Physics A G482, Electrons, Waves and Photons, 25th May 2012

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Original post by canabel
any unofficial mark scheme?


you could easily google that, why would you ask
Straight line through the origin idea is irrelevant. Whenever there is a straight line (or near to as in the question) between current and voltage the relationship after that point will be linear so constant resistance. In my opinion, all they were looking for was identification of the straight line, as they said 'features' of the graph, not a string of calculations.
Original post by Malabarista
Straight line through the origin idea is irrelevant. Whenever there is a straight line (or near to as in the question) between current and voltage the relationship after that point will be linear so constant resistance. In my opinion, all they were looking for was identification of the straight line, as they said 'features' of the graph, not a string of calculations.


I also put that the resistance is constant, however after reading around it seems clear that the resistance of a non ohmic conductor is not = to the gradient. Basically because dI/dV on a ohmic conductor is exactly the same as I/V, however on non ohmic conductor, the values are different.

Oh well, hoping for grade boundaries of about 65-70!
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 1163
Original post by Miryo
well im sort of relieved but my mind wont be at rest until I know why lol. At first I thought straight line and tested the values but saw R was decreasing so put that.

Can you explain why resistance is not 1/gradient?


I think the main thing to realise is an LED ( I think it was) is not an ohmic conductor so there's no way of that being a straight line. The gradient of the line was increasing which indicated the resistance of it decreasing.
Reply 1164
Original post by Miryo
I thought I was smart but you sir, are a genius. Would I have to say that in the paper? I just said as voltage increases, current decreases, did the calculations at 1.8V, 1.9V and 2.0V showing R decreasing and said its non ohmic.

I think I did the one where you have to draw the wave on the graph right, but talk me through it :biggrin:


I nearly messed the question up my self.
I had to change it in the last 10 minutes and scribbled down the calculations for 2V to justify it. It was only 2 marks + a QWC so that is probably enough I'd imagine?

For the graph each half second segment was 0,+.25,-0.12,+0.08,0 with those value being what your wave should go through at the midpoint of each segment.
Those values might be slightly off.



And everyone.
A straight line does not means a constant resistance unless said lines passes through the origin
Original post by lindizya
yeah i said because of the straight line but i didn't say anything about it obeying ohms law because a diode doesn't fml i hope we get at least one mark for stating it's a straight line.


it doesnt obey ohms law. However it reaches a steady resistance. Look at the markschemes of pastpapers.
Reply 1166
Original post by Chonggiy
For the LED question for V > 1.8v the line actually becomes straight. There is a past exam question which was similar, in which the mark scheme said it becomes straight for V > a certain value. The whole point of the question was to spot the fact that it had become straight for V > 1.8v, as for V < 1.8v, it was obviously curved. So 1.8v was like a limit for which the resistance no longer decreases.

:smile:


I worked out the resistance at 1.8V and another voltage further along and found that the resistance was decreasing, I did say that after 1.8V the current was proportional to voltage, to explain this decrease I said that current is increasing at a greater rate than voltage.
Anyone else???


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(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by mucgoo
I nearly messed the question up my self.
I had to change it in the last 10 minutes and scribbled down the calculations for 2V to justify it. It was only 2 marks + a QWC so that is probably enough I'd imagine?

For the graph each half second segment was 0,+.25,-0.12,+0.08,0 with those value being what your wave should go through at the midpoint of each segment.
Those values might be slightly off.



And everyone.
A straight line does not means a constant resistance unless said lines passes through the origin


However, from basic graph drawing, a straight line does represent a linear relationship, the constant being the resistance.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Malabarista
However, from basic graph drawing, a straight line does represent a linear relationship, the constant being the resistance.


If it passes through origin its directly proportional.
Reply 1169
Original post by Malabarista
However, from basic graph drawing, a straight line does represent a linear relationship, the constant being the resistance. What this fuss about the origin is I do not know.


Again I'll use a simple example.
a straight line on a V,I graph
10,0 to 20,10
At 10V and below infinite resistance, that fits with it being a 0 gradient line
at just over 10V very high resistance
at 20V 2ohms
at 40V 4/3
it keeps decreasing toward the gradient of one but will never actually equal one
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by canabel
any unofficial mark scheme?


i've just asked teachercol for it. I'll share it as soon as he puts it up.
Original post by Emissionspectra
If it passes through origin its directly proportional.


Check out the Jan 12 mark scheme, (I think Jan 12), it is very similar and the LED is identified as having a constant resistance after a certain voltage.
Original post by mucgoo
Again I'll use a simple example.
a straight line on a V,I graph
10,0 to 20,10
At 10V and below infinite resistance, that fits with it being a 0 gradient line
at just over 10V very high resistance
at 20V 2ohms
at 40V 4/3
it keeps decreasing toward the gradient of one but will never actually equal one


In your example, however, one of the points is at 0 current. So this doesn't compare to our question, at 1.8V the LED had a definite resistance.
Original post by mucgoo
I nearly messed the question up my self.
I had to change it in the last 10 minutes and scribbled down the calculations for 2V to justify it. It was only 2 marks + a QWC so that is probably enough I'd imagine?

For the graph each half second segment was 0,+.25,-0.12,+0.08,0 with those value being what your wave should go through at the midpoint of each segment.
Those values might be slightly off.



And everyone.
A straight line does not means a constant resistance unless said lines passes through the origin


It kinda does. A straight line has constant resistance.
Reply 1174
Original post by Malabarista
In your example, however, one of the points is at 0 current. So this doesn't compare to our question, at 1.8V the LED had a definite resistance.


Fine make it between 10,1 and 20,10
At 10V that's 10ohms
at 20V that's 2ohms
Reply 1175
Grade boundary predictions?
Original post by mucgoo
again i'll use a simple example.
A straight line on a v,i graph
10,0 to 20,10
at 10v and below infinite resistance, that fits with it being a 0 gradient line
at just over 10v very high resistance
at 20v 2ohms
at 40v 4/3
it keeps decreasing toward the gradient of one but will never actually equal one


when considering a graph. R at any point is gradient of tangent to the graph at that point. When you have a straight line it means r doesn't change. What you are saying is the average gradient. My opinion though.:smile:
just found this in my revision guide - "The resistance of the LED decreases dramatically as the voltage across it becomes larger than the threshold voltage. Ths happens because of an increase in the number density of electrons in the circuit. an LED is a non - ohmic component
Actually sorry about all that. I just looked up the Jan 12 paper and resistance does decrease. Q 4. a, oh well, that's depressing...
I was pretty sure in the exam that the diode had a constant resistance because the line was straight... now I'm a bit confused!

If we assume the line to be straight (I know some people are saying it wasn't - I personally didn't check), we can model it using y=mx+c:
I=mV+c => V=(I-c)/m, so V/I=R=(I-c)/mI=1/m-c/mI

1/m-c/mI will eventually be constant as I increases, since c/mI will tend to 0 for large I... obviously our graph didn't go up that high, so the resistance of our graph probably wasn't constant, though I am unsure what the markscheme will say.

Given that c was negative, let c=-k. Then R=1/m+k/mI, which will decrease as I gets bigger, so the resistance was probably decreasing.

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