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Integration - What are they on about?

.S.O.S.

So im confused...he's right i can't change who i am, but does that mean people won't really accept me here as an equal although they might pretend to.

There are Muslim celebrities, writers, sportsmen, and in the government.

I think it's safe to say that the notion that a Muslim CANT intergrate is patently false.

Reply 81

The Green Manalishi

1

Lawz-

Why does it need a national dress.

I wasn't implying it had to have one.

I simply dont understand this contention that the UK has no culture. Clearly it does - it is whatever the current combination of peoples, morals, etc etc are. Just because someone is not inclined or able to engage in the time ocnsuming process of listing every aspect of the mosaic is not to say that there is no such thing as British culture.

I didn't say it didn't have a culture/ culture. I was asking what people define by it. Patriotism? Freedom/ liberty? If so, giving up one's conservative nature and embracing their liberal one moreso? (I'm not saying Britain does this, just speculating...)

That's not really relevant to whether people who have brought in a foreign culture, language and the like should be coaxed into intergrating with mainstream life in the country of their birth.

I was pointing out that someone can be completely British, yet muslim also. I didn't know this thread was specifically about immigrants :smile:

Reply 82

Lawz-

14

The Green Manalishi

I was asking what people define by it.

Why would they need to define it - its a complex and nuanced thing involving a wide range of sometimes contradictory things. It would take a lot of time and effort to come up with anything like a comprehensive definition.

I was pointing out that someone can be completely British, yet muslim also. I didn't know this thread was specifically about immigrants :smile:

Yes you can be Muslim and British - because the cultureal makeup of the country includes elements of Islam. However, greater immigration of Muslims will simply increase the % of that makeup that includes Islam. Intergration is harder for people who have moral objections to the prevailing system.

Reply 83

The Green Manalishi

1

Lawz-

Why would they need to define it - its a complex and nuanced thing involving a wide range of sometimes contradictory things. It would take a lot of time and effort to come up with anything like a comprehensive definition.

Of course, but everytime i've asked for even a subtlety of British culture i haven't found an answer.

Yes you can be Muslim and British - because the cultureal makeup of the country includes elements of Islam. However, greater immigration of Muslims will simply increase the % of that makeup that includes Islam. Intergration is harder for people who have moral objections to the prevailing system.

Of course, but then if there's no compulsion to integrate then it's fine. To each his own kinda thing eh? :wink:

I attended a talk by Yvonne Ridley last night - it was nice! And she says that the British muslims are under a lot of heat for this integration thing although she says it's been done to a great extent already... She mentioned the anti-war movement. Just thought i'd mention that :smile:

Reply 84

Laika

1

I don't want to play the Marxist here but maybe the fact that some Muslims have difficulty 'integrating' (whatever that means) and feel so alienated is because most predominantly Muslim areas are complete ****holes.

Reply 85

Oswy

15

Laika

I don't want to play the Marxist here but maybe the fact that some Muslims have difficulty 'integrating' (whatever that means) and feel so alienated is because most predominantly Muslim areas are complete ****holes.

I'm sure there's something in that. I personally suspect that some young British Muslims take up militant Islamic ideas as a consequence of experiencing the unrelenting racism which casts Muslims are 'not really British' and in such a way that they never can be 'really British' because, essentially, they are not white.

I'm sure it's a common phenomenon for those who are consistently rejected to themselves counter this with thier own reactionary rejection.

Oswy.

Reply 86

Lawz-

14

Oswy

I'm sure there's something in that. I personally suspect that some young British Muslims take up militant Islamic ideas as a consequence of experiencing the unrelenting racism which casts Muslims are 'not really British' and in such a way that they never can be 'really British' because, essentially, they are not white.

I'm sure it's a common phenomenon for those who are consistently rejected to themselves counter this with thier own reactionary rejection.

Oswy.

Recent polls would contradict that in that they show that British people have better views of Muslims than their continental counterparts, while Muslims in the UK have worse opinions of their country and non-Muslim countrymen than THEIR continental counterparts.

Reply 87

The Green Manalishi

1

Oswy

I'm sure there's something in that. I personally suspect that some young British Muslims take up militant Islamic ideas as a consequence of experiencing the unrelenting racism which casts Muslims are 'not really British' and in such a way that they never can be 'really British' because, essentially, they are not white.

I'm sure it's a common phenomenon for those who are consistently rejected to themselves counter this with thier own reactionary rejection.

Oswy.

Which leads me to why someone would actively want to be British, if they can't be... I mean, i take my religion as primary to any nationality. I'm a muslim before i'm a Sri Lankan for sure...

For the purposes of this thread would someone like to say more on this word "integration"?

Reply 88

Lawz-

14

The Green Manalishi

Which leads me to why someone would actively want to be British, if they can't be... I mean, i take my religion as primary to any nationality. I'm a muslim before i'm a Sri Lankan for sure...

For the purposes of this thread would someone like to say more on this word "integration"?

Precisely the problem. You, IMO, are an incredibly decent and moderate guy, willing to accept other views and lifestyles - but yet even YOU (logically if we assume the truth of the faith) hold your religion as primary to all. As such, it's often very hard to reconcile your beliefs with the culture in which you emmigrate to.

More and more I seem to think a regional Ummah for Musilms would be a good idea and outside of it, the rules of the faith should not affect other cultural makeups.

Reply 89

The Green Manalishi

1

Lawz-

Precisely the problem. You, IMO, are an incredibly decent and moderate guy, willing to accept other views and lifestyles - but yet even YOU (logically if we assume the truth of the faith) hold your religion as primary to all. As such, it's often very hard to reconcile your beliefs with the culture in which you emmigrate to.

More and more I seem to think a regional Ummah for Musilms would be a good idea and outside of it, the rules of the faith should not affect other cultural makeups.

Thank you Lawz- That's very nice of you! :biggrin:

You and i are thinking on somewhat of the same frequency :cool:

I'm not so much for culture as i am for my religion, living (and born) in Sri Lanka i can see some of the cultural aspects that detract from Islam e.g. the difference here between dowry (cultural) and Mahr (Islamic) as just one example.
I don't see it as a detrimental aspect to my way of living... I just reject it and carry on, although it becomes a problem as it twists mainstream Islamic views. Luckily the bourdary between culture and Islam is becoming less blurred to the masses here.

Ummah where? Shariah law for the muslims in the UK? :p:

I thought not...
Erm, sorry for that... Well, i hope to emmigrate to Saudi Arabia hopefully if an employment opportunity arises in the future (InshaAllah - God willing), my reasoning being somewhat along with your line of thinking...

Reply 90

Oswy

15

The Green Manalishi

Which leads me to why someone would actively want to be British, if they can't be... I mean, i take my religion as primary to any nationality. I'm a muslim before i'm a Sri Lankan for sure...

For the purposes of this thread would someone like to say more on this word "integration"?

But they can be British, and indeed are British, but racism on the street and in the media offer a different message. To some extent it depends on the individual, and Islam has its own internal dynamic and ongoing historical development (especially within the context of globalisation), but I'm offering the idea that if a young British Muslim finds that the voices of racism too strong, too able to engender in them the idea that they can't really be British, because they are not white or because they are Muslim, then this could easily lead to their radical rejection of the society which appears to be rejecting of them. Basically I'm feeding on Gramsci's idea of cultural Hegemony - but unless you're a history or social science student you may well not have heard of him.

Polls may show one thing, but even if only relatively small numbers of British Muslims are so radicalised in their counter rejection it's still something to worry about. Maybe we should spend more time listening to British Muslims to hear why they think things like 7/7 happened?

Oswy.

Integration - What are they on about?

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