The Student Room Group

is it in a man's best interest for him to keep being 'manly'?

In my time on TSR and the Internet I have experienced a lot of evidence which suggests that women find it more attractive and men respect other men more when they remain as close to 'real men' as possible-in particular stoic and accepting, not complaining or even speaking out on social expectations of them or pressures faced as a group. Such things as a woman would find it a turn off if a man sought protection and the use of 'man up' ad nauseam as response to a problem.

The one exception is when a man is GBT+ but still he faces stigma from homophobes. There is another rare exception for the likes of male suicide which is given some sympathy, however even this people are often quick to demean as a sign of poor character...

Given this is it better to take the Red Pill philosophy's route and stay within the traditional masculine gender role? It really seems people on the whole overwhelmingly respond better to it.

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Reply 1
It depends on what you value more -- remaining your authentic self or the attention from women and the respect from other men.

But honestly changing your entire personality in order to appeal to more people is quite insecure in itself.
Reply 2
Original post by ilem
It depends on what you value more -- remaining your authentic self or the attention from women and the respect from other men.

But honestly changing your entire personality in order to appeal to more people is quite insecure in itself.


Not at all. The ability to change ones personality at whim can be a very good skill... Only a social and business illiterate would think otherwise.
Original post by ilem
It depends on what you value more -- remaining your authentic self or the attention from women and the respect from other men.

But honestly changing your entire personality in order to appeal to more people is quite insecure in itself.


Original post by DErasmus
Not at all. The ability to change ones personality at whim can be a very good skill... Only a social and business illiterate would think otherwise.


I agree. How else is a total narcissist expected to have friends? By altering the personality to make them more appealing and more enjoyable to be around. Given that that is an extreme example, but here's another one. We don't have a fixed personality and we generally change how we are (usually) because of the influences around us.
Reply 4
Original post by beaverhausen
I agree. How else is a total narcissist expected to have friends? By altering the personality to make them more appealing and more enjoyable to be around. Given that that is an extreme example, but here's another one. We don't have a fixed personality and we generally change how we are (usually) because of the influences around us.


Except that being a total narcissist is an inherently negative trait. Not being 'masculine' is only negative because society expects men to conform to certain ideals. There is no need to change a personality that's not traditionally masculine, unless you are insecure about it. In this case the problem is not with you but with wider societal attitudes.
Reply 5
Original post by ilem
Except that being a total narcissist is an inherently negative trait. Not being 'masculine' is only negative because society expects men to conform to certain ideals. There is no need to change a personality that's not traditionally masculine, unless you are insecure about it. In this case the problem is not with you but with wider societal attitudes.


Whether or not it is ideal for society to treat masculinity as a positive trait is irrelevent, it clearly is perceived as such by many in society and therefore has as much value as changing ones personality if they had any of the three dark triads.
Reply 6
Original post by DErasmus
Whether or not it is ideal for society to treat masculinity as a positive trait is irrelevent, it clearly is perceived as such by many in society and therefore has as much value as changing ones personality if they had any of the three dark triads.


You're just contributing to the problem if you change your entire personality because the majority of society doesn't approve of it. I doubt you can be properly happy with yourself anyway knowing you had to suppress and reinvent your identity just because some people looked down on you.
Turn it around, and you have just as many problems as a woman, not being feminine. Obviously it's far more acceptable for women to wear men's clothes etc, but that doesn't make them attractive to the opposite sex.

Basically, if you don't fit the ideal, you have a choice - be yourself or attract a partner of decent quality. Usually people come up with some sort of compromise, or actually come to enjoy fitting in to their suggested role because the new attention is worth it.

Edit: This addresses sexual attraction. With things like male suicide, attitudes need changing (and they have been - it's now far more acceptable for men to seek help than it would have been 80 years ago).
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by ilem
You're just contributing to the problem if you change your entire personality because the majority of society doesn't approve of it. I doubt you can be properly happy with yourself anyway knowing you had to suppress and reinvent your identity just because some people looked down on you.


Doesn't make sense. Most accept social influence is very important to happiness, if anything it would be the opposite. There's a difference between recognising the benefits of change and being obsessive about it, the latter is obviously unhealthy.
Reply 9
Original post by Octohedral
Turn it around, and you have just as many problems as a woman, not being feminine. Obviously it's far more acceptable for women to wear men's clothes etc, but that doesn't make them attractive to the opposite sex.

Basically, if you don't fit the ideal, you have a choice - be yourself or attract a partner of decent quality (sorry about the objectification - could be either gender, but it's true). Usually people come up with some sort of compromise, or actually come to enjoy fitting in to their suggested role because the new attention is worth it.

Edit: This addresses sexual attraction. With things like male suicide, attitudes need changing (and they have been - it's now far more acceptable for men to seek help than it would have been 80 years ago).


I think it's a case of is-ought. Society ought to be a certain way but that doesn't change the fact it IS a certain way. You can try to change it, but as a whole certain traits are more desirable to certain groups and you can't avoid that. It's better to just adapt.
I'm so manly I don't give a **** about being manly.
Reply 11
Original post by DErasmus
Doesn't make sense. Most accept social influence is very important to happiness, if anything it would be the opposite. There's a difference between recognising the benefits of change and being obsessive about it, the latter is obviously unhealthy.


I think accepting and staying true to yourself is a greater source of happiness than social influence.

As for being obsessive about it, I think Riku is currently quite obviously being obsessive about this thing. Accepting himself for who he is instead of relentlessly pursuing the ideal set for him by society would be so much healthier for him.
Original post by ilem
I think accepting and staying true to yourself is a greater source of happiness than social influence.

As for being obsessive about it, I think Riku is currently quite obviously being obsessive about this thing. Accepting himself for who he is instead of relentlessly pursuing the ideal set for him by society would be so much healthier for him.


The ideal isn't being set by society though, it's precisely him that needs changing, he needs to bring his ideal in accordance with those of society and realise that being in the top 1 percentile doesn't (always) make a difference and even if it did his attitude is the wrong way to go about it.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'm so manly I don't give a **** about being manly.


Butterfly.
Original post by DErasmus
Butterfly.


I'm so manly I can call myself a name like Butterfly without fear. Real men can wear pink after all.
Reply 15
Original post by DErasmus
The ideal isn't being set by society though, it's precisely him that needs changing, he needs to bring his ideal in accordance with those of society and realise that being in the top 1 percentile doesn't (always) make a difference and even if it did his attitude is the wrong way to go about it.


I don't quite follow. What do you mean by ' he needs to bring his ideal in accordance with those of society'?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'm so manly I can call myself a name like Butterfly without fear. Real men can wear pink after all.


Lol. Yeah that's just that whole social engineering thing no one falls for.
Original post by ilem
I don't quite follow. What do you mean by ' he needs to bring his ideal in accordance with those of society'?


Society has a division of labour for a reason, not everyone makes the top percentile and complaining about it is detrimental to social relationships and personal well being. In fact properly society can't be said to have ideals, only ideal roles since individuals are the basis of it.
Masculine = Confidence, charm, can make reasonably sound decisions and take the lead and other qualities women are attracted to.
Thought that most alpha males are masculine, look and act.

So yeah men need to be manly.
Reply 19
Original post by DErasmus
Society has a division of labour for a reason, not everyone makes the top percentile and complaining about it is detrimental to social relationships and personal well being. In fact properly society can't be said to have ideals, only ideal roles since individuals are the basis of it.


I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to change what we perceive as ideals. Of course passive whining is not the right way to go about it.

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