Learning a 4th language: Russian Vs. Dutch Vs. Spanish

If you speak German and indeed are going to oxford to do German then Dutch will be a walk in the park. The pronounciation isn't even hard by the way, the words just look weird.

I'm not saying that you should choose Dutch over Russian or Spanish but it would DEFINITELY be the easiest one out of all of them.

I found it extremely easy and I didn't even speak German at the time.

Reply 23

brimstone

7

In my opinion, Dutch would be pretty useless unless you were planning to live in either Holland or South Africa; for all intents and purposes, most people from the Netherlands speak very good English, and if you went to South Africa, you'd only need Dutch to help pick up Afrikaans.

Spanish, as has been said, will be pretty 'easy' compared to Russian. However, for me, Russian is a more important language, and it'll have rising prominance over the next few decades (again!).

Reply 24

I'd love to say that Dutch was a useful language, but I have to agree with Brimstone - Dutch is useless. Not simply because it's barely spoken, but more importantly because it's hideous. German is a world apart from Dutch. Where German follows logical grammatical rules, the Dutch language is horrendously inconsistent and ridiculously overcomplicated with more exceptions to rules than rules themselves. Irregular verbs are the norm and the entire language is revised every 3 years so nobody really knows what the correct spelling of certain words is. I think Dutch is one of those languages which are easy to grasp but hard to master. But I'm not exactly a fair judge, so never mind me. :p:

Although if I hadn't been able to speak it as mother tongue, I'd probably never have bothered.

Reply 25

DeadLine

nugax

...with more exceptions to rules than rules themselves. Irregular verbs are the norm...

We could say something similar about English too... :p:

Reply 26

nugax

the Dutch language is horrendously inconsistent and ridiculously overcomplicated with more exceptions to rules than rules themselves.

Expand on this please, as I don't really agree.

Reply 27

kimoso

Expand on this please, as I don't really agree.

Fine.

't Kofschip / 't Fokschaap

Unlike German, noun sex is completely (and I mean totally, utterly) random and doesn't follow any rule nor adhere to any guideline, so the only way you'll ever remember the sex of each noun is to speak Dutch for years on end and try to remember them all. Mind you, my mum has been speaking it for 13 years and still gets half of them wrong.

Spelling of plural contractions and compounds is changed every year.

Grammatic cases have derailed from the German track and have become rudimentary, making the proper use very unclear: now they are applied fairly randomly or not at all - you'll have difficulty finding more than 3 dutchmen who know that 's morgens comes from the genitive des morgens, while anyone who says 'de heer der huizes' is publically humiliated. Te allen tijde is the proper spelling but according to statistics ten alle tijden is actually more widely-used - our rules are so confusing even we can't be bothered to follow them. Or simply have forgotten all those gender-related exceptions in grammatical cases.

The use of the past perfect, past simple and past progressive tense seems to follow no particular rule, but get it wrong and it is likely to be pointed out. Even though the person pointing out the mistake can barely explain why exactly it's wrong. This because unlike in English the original rules have been abandoned a long time ago.

And of course our verbs are a joke.

I could go on... :rolleyes:

Of course, these inconsistensies can be overcome and it's very possible to master the language. Dutch is not the hardest language in the world, but it's a not exactly a walk in the park. This definitely shouldn't discourage you from learning a language if you're genuinely interested - as mentioned before. But I think that the notion that Dutch is easy simply because it looks like German is a little misguided.

Reply 28

nugax

Fine.

't Kofschip / 't Fokschaap

How is this irregular or difficult?

nugax

Unlike German, noun sex is completely (and I mean totally, utterly) random and doesn't follow any rule nor adhere to any guideline, so the only way you'll ever remember the sex of each noun is to speak Dutch for years on end and try to remember them all. Mind you, my mum has been speaking it for 13 years and still gets half of them wrong.

Not completely, there are some types of words that pretty much always have either 'de' or 'het'. Words ending in -ing for example pretty much always have 'de' in front of them. There are loads of them but I can't be bothered thinking of them right now.

As for the other things, fair enough, Dutch does have its difficulties but I really think you're over exaggerating if you say that it's 'horrendous' or whatever, because it's really not. It is difficult, yes, as is any language, but compared to every other language I have ever attempted learning Dutch has been by FAR the easiest.

That does not mean I am saying it is practical or useful to learn Dutch though, just that it's not as amazingly hard as some people would have it.

Reply 29

kimoso

How is this irregular or difficult?

I have actually never once said that Dutch was difficult - nobody in this thread did. Just overcomplicated and not a 'walk in the park'. And errr, you wouldn't find the differentiation between 'strong' and 'weak' verbs to be fairly random and utterly unnecessary?

Not completely, there are some types of words that pretty much always have either 'de' or 'het'. Words ending in -ing for example pretty much always have 'de' in front of them. There are loads of them but I can't be bothered thinking of them right now.

True, I exaggerated the situation slightly. Nevertheless, the guidelines are fairly useless as they apply to about 1/5 of nouns. The fact that we use a single article for two genders is also quite silly. Not as silly as using a single one for 3 genders though. *cough* :biggrin:

As for the other things, fair enough, Dutch does have its difficulties but I really think you're over exaggerating if you say that it's 'horrendous' or whatever, because it's really not. It is difficult, yes, as is any language, but compared to every other language I have ever attempted learning Dutch has been by FAR the easiest.

I certainly found it a lot easier to learn Latin, German and French than I very likely would have found Dutch to be. But I'm a sucker for declinations, conjugations, grammatic cases and logic, so my bias filters through once again. :p:

That does not mean I am saying it is practical or useful to learn Dutch though, just that it's not as amazingly hard as some people would have it.

Well, no. I concur. But then again, that never was the point of this discussion. I dislike the Dutch language for its blatant irrationalism, but I also find the idea that Dutch 'is a walk in the park' a bit overconfident - hence my 'easy to learn, difficult to master' poke. :angel:

Maar ik heb eigenlijk geen flauw benul van je Nederlandse vaardigheden, dus het spijt me als ik je grof onderschat heb. :p:

Overigens spijt het me ook als ik ietwat chagrijnig overkom - ik ben een beetje een aanbidder van een zeker toneelstuk door die beroemde toneelschrijver... 'Much ado about...' :wink:

Reply 30

brimstone

7

nugax

I'd love to say that Dutch was a useful language, but I have to agree with Brimstone - Dutch is useless. Not simply because it's barely spoken, but more importantly because it's hideous. German is a world apart from Dutch. Where German follows logical grammatical rules, the Dutch language is horrendously inconsistent and ridiculously overcomplicated with more exceptions to rules than rules themselves. Irregular verbs are the norm and the entire language is revised every 3 years so nobody really knows what the correct spelling of certain words is. I think Dutch is one of those languages which are easy to grasp but hard to master. But I'm not exactly a fair judge, so never mind me. :p:

Although if I hadn't been able to speak it as mother tongue, I'd probably never have bothered.

Wow, I didn't know that :eek:

Why do they revise it so often?

Reply 31

brimstone

Wow, I didn't know that :eek:

Why do they revise it so often?

Hehe, it's quite silly. We have something called the Nederlandse Taalunie, the Union of the Dutch Language. It's not really a union, but a ministerial subcommittee of the Dutch and Belgian cabinet, with 4 secretaries governing it: a Dutch secretary, a dutch undersecretary and two Flemish secretaries. Their goal is not to "change the rules of spelling" but to keep up with change in spelling by changing the rules. That's of course incredibly vague and since no one can be bothered to do research on the actual changes, they just make up a few random rules and send the media into despair for a couple of weeks once every few years. (thank god, otherwise tH1s wu1d h4V3 b33n M4d3 P3rfctleh 4cC3PTibul!!!!11!1!1!!1 And uhm yeah, I probably wouldn't survive...)

An example of changes: pannenkoek (pancake) is now spelt pannekoek. Or the other way round; I've lost track. :p:

Last year, the media actually got so fed up with this that the printing press came up with their own spelling format, so they'd never have to adapt to that madness ever again. :biggrin:

Reply 32

brimstone

7

nugax

An example of changes: pannenkoek (pancake) is now spelt pannekoek. Or the other way round; I've lost track. :p:

Last year, the media actually got so fed up with this that the printing press came up with their own spelling format, so they'd never have to adapt to that madness ever again. :biggrin:

Wow, that is really interesting! I'm definitely going to have a read up about that. Haha, for once I feel sorry for the media... having to adapt and all that. Heh, Dutch is much more confusing that I thought it was! :eek:

Reply 33

Anatheme

18

You know what ?
I'm glad the Académie Française is very strict about grammar, new words and spelling, lol, it certainly makes French easier than Dutch, hahaha :biggrin:

.

Reply 34

obsession

The OP apparently washed his hands off the thread :p:

And i think you guys scared him away a little dutch-wise :biggrin:

Reply 35

WastingMyThyme

OP

Lol I was actually just watching to see how it all panned out! The decision/advice seems pretty synonymous, so I'll go with my previous gut-feeling of Russian then :smile:

This is gonna take some serious balls.

Cheers for the big insight on Dutch though :biggrin:

And thanks everyone for their help, on all scales .. !!

Reply 36

nugax

I have actually never once said that Dutch was difficult - nobody in this thread did. Just overcomplicated and not a 'walk in the park'. And errr, you wouldn't find the differentiation between 'strong' and 'weak' verbs to be fairly random and utterly unnecessary?

True, I exaggerated the situation slightly. Nevertheless, the guidelines are fairly useless as they apply to about 1/5 of nouns. The fact that we use a single article for two genders is also quite silly. Not as silly as using a single one for 3 genders though. *cough* :biggrin:

I certainly found it a lot easier to learn Latin, German and French than I very likely would have found Dutch to be. But I'm a sucker for declinations, conjugations, grammatic cases and logic, so my bias filters through once again. :p:

Well, no. I concur. But then again, that never was the point of this discussion. I dislike the Dutch language for its blatant irrationalism, but I also find the idea that Dutch 'is a walk in the park' a bit overconfident - hence my 'easy to learn, difficult to master' poke. :angel:

Maar ik heb eigenlijk geen flauw benul van je Nederlandse vaardigheden, dus het spijt me als ik je grof onderschat heb. :p:

Overigens spijt het me ook als ik ietwat chagrijnig overkom - ik ben een beetje een aanbidder van een zeker toneelstuk door die beroemde toneelschrijver... 'Much ado about...' :wink:

Hmm well it is a bit unneccessary about the strong and weak verbs but not technically irregular or random - there are certain rules, if you can actually be bothered learning them. But anyway if you speak English, they sort of seem to come naturally cos often some of the strong verbs in Dutch are also strong in english like 'I drink, I drank', 'Ik drink, Ik dronk'. I for one never had a problem with it really, it would be very difficult for someone who's native language is not germanic.

En hahah mijn Nederlands is eigenlijk nu echt niet zo goed omdat ik examens heb gehad en ik heb al een maandje ofzo geen Nederlands gesproken (of getypt haha). Daarom maak ik nu zoveel foutjes ¬_¬ Ik denk dat ik weer aan de slag moet gaan, maar ik weet niet of dat zin zou hebben omdat we deze jaar niet op vakantie naar Nederland gaan. (does zin hebben actually mean 'to make sense' by the way? I'm so out of practise)

Is pannenkoek really pannekoek now?! That's so weird.. o_O

Reply 37

kimoso

Hmm well it is a bit unneccessary about the strong and weak verbs but not technically irregular or random - there are certain rules, if you can actually be bothered learning them. But anyway if you speak English, they sort of seem to come naturally cos often some of the strong verbs in Dutch are also strong in english like 'I drink, I drank', 'Ik drink, Ik dronk'. I for one never had a problem with it really, it would be very difficult for someone who's native language is not germanic.
Actually... *does Simon Amstell-look* You're right. :p:

En hahah mijn Nederlands is eigenlijk nu echt niet zo goed omdat ik examens heb gehad en ik heb al een maandje ofzo geen Nederlands gesproken (of getypt haha). Daarom maak ik nu zoveel foutjes ¬_¬ Ik denk dat ik weer aan de slag moet gaan, maar ik weet niet of dat zin zou hebben omdat we deze jaar niet op vakantie naar Nederland gaan. (does zin hebben actually mean 'to make sense' by the way? I'm so out of practise)

Can I just say I'm extremely impressed? :biggrin:

I've never managed to get to your level with any language I was taught at school. Latin was really the only thing I was taught properly, French & German lessons were a bit of a joke really. But then, that's nation-wide so I'm not really bothered. Now I just need to find a way to teach myself French. :redface:

And there's actually just one mistake: you have 'deze jaar', as apposed to 'dit jaar' (het jaar) :wink:

! But otherwise, flawless! You also have really managed to nail the way the Dutch use adverbs to make their sentences run more smoothly. On another note, 'zin hebben' does indeed mean 'to make sense' (although be careful - it also means 'to be in the mood' and can/is often misconstrued as sexual innuendo :p:

)

Reply 38