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Grammar Schools are Elitist?
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1) A tutor costs a few hundred pounds once, not thousands every year.
2) I'm not saying it's massive, but the demographics are slightly different in grammars
3) Students serve each other. Friendly competition and having someone else intelligent to bounce off and who won't laugh at you for being clever/inquisitive are important in helping learning. I coasted in the comp because I didn't have to work at all to be easily one of the best and being clever wasn't especially seen as an admirable trait anyway by my peers. Some (many, I'd wager) people need a group of people of similar aspirations and intelligence around them to do well even it is only a smallish group. I only had maybe 2 people in my year like me in that respect, which is a very small number. The rest of the local clever kids were at the grammars. Admittedly this affect is exaggerated in Plymouth because there are three grammars which is quite a lot for a not that big city and my local comp took kids from some of the roughest areas as well as where I live which is just normal.
2) I'm not saying it's massive, but the demographics are slightly different in grammars
3) Students serve each other. Friendly competition and having someone else intelligent to bounce off and who won't laugh at you for being clever/inquisitive are important in helping learning. I coasted in the comp because I didn't have to work at all to be easily one of the best and being clever wasn't especially seen as an admirable trait anyway by my peers. Some (many, I'd wager) people need a group of people of similar aspirations and intelligence around them to do well even it is only a smallish group. I only had maybe 2 people in my year like me in that respect, which is a very small number. The rest of the local clever kids were at the grammars. Admittedly this affect is exaggerated in Plymouth because there are three grammars which is quite a lot for a not that big city and my local comp took kids from some of the roughest areas as well as where I live which is just normal.
cruciform
Discuss
Also would you say it is unfair for the late developers who are brighter later on, as grammar schools take you in at 11. Children who don't get in aren't given a greater chance to be as good as children in grammar schools. This even affects you in later life as you will never have the same study habits or discipline as a grammar school student.
Also would you say it is unfair for the late developers who are brighter later on, as grammar schools take you in at 11. Children who don't get in aren't given a greater chance to be as good as children in grammar schools. This even affects you in later life as you will never have the same study habits or discipline as a grammar school student.
you can take a 13 + entry exam and you can apply for the sixth form.
[QUOTE="cruciform"]
Yeah, I was in an identical situation, albeit worse!
I ended up biting the bullet and moving to the Grammar School.
My friend who was my 'maths buddy' got an E in Maths AS, and my friends who I would compare myself to got Ds and Es overall.
On the other hand, I'm really glad I went to a non-intellectually discriminating school (It was a secondary school where you either had to be jewish, religious, good at music, or a really nice guy to get in: don't ask! :P) for my GCSEs.. It taught me many lessons you don't learn in grammar schools. Like how idiotic people can be. And how to talk to the girls
calvinuk
The only people who will EVER complain about the "elitism" in grammar schools are the people that never had the opportunity to attend one.
That would be me complaining then. I could have gone but didn't. Then I had another chance to go in the sixth form. I had a friend who had reasonable GCSE's like me. He went on to get AAAb and has an offer from Imperial. I got BBBc. I should have gone.
That would be me complaining then. I could have gone but didn't. Then I had another chance to go in the sixth form. I had a friend who had reasonable GCSE's like me. He went on to get AAAb and has an offer from Imperial. I got BBBc. I should have gone.
Yeah, I was in an identical situation, albeit worse!
I ended up biting the bullet and moving to the Grammar School.
My friend who was my 'maths buddy' got an E in Maths AS, and my friends who I would compare myself to got Ds and Es overall.
On the other hand, I'm really glad I went to a non-intellectually discriminating school (It was a secondary school where you either had to be jewish, religious, good at music, or a really nice guy to get in: don't ask! :P) for my GCSEs.. It taught me many lessons you don't learn in grammar schools. Like how idiotic people can be. And how to talk to the girls
aforalice
1)Money can give you an advantage because some people pay for tutors to get their averagely intelligent children to pass the 11+.
I didn't get any tutoring at all, but I got an A.
My friend went to tutoring twice a week and got a C1.
I know people who have had tutoring as well, and have got Ds.
a lot of people get tutored for it, i'd say 30% of my year were tutored to get in
also atleast 30% of people went to private primary school
despite this they are a good idea, especially for people like me who could never afford a private education, but would definately have failed at a mixed comp (very easily distracted, hang with wrong crowd etc)
also atleast 30% of people went to private primary school
despite this they are a good idea, especially for people like me who could never afford a private education, but would definately have failed at a mixed comp (very easily distracted, hang with wrong crowd etc)
Our school has applications whenever there are spaces - it's not like if you don't get in in Year 6 you never will. When people leave, there's an entrance exam, so if your intelligence rapidly changing then that's allowed for to an extent.
(Although clearly we don't do the 11+, cos it wasn't grades we got given!)
Where I am, there is no social elitism at all - it's a complete and utter mix of people, just as you'd find in a lot of places.
(Although clearly we don't do the 11+, cos it wasn't grades we got given!)
Where I am, there is no social elitism at all - it's a complete and utter mix of people, just as you'd find in a lot of places.
Education and acaedemia are the only theatres in which I not only do not dislike, but entirely encourage elitism. I think we should be encouraging our children to be intellectually elitist.
DanGrover
Education and acaedemia are the only theatres in which I not only do not dislike, but entirely encourage elitism. I think we should be encouraging our children to be intellectually elitist.
Well said
aforalice
Basically
1)Money can give you an advantage because some people pay for tutors to get their averagely intelligent children to pass the 11+.
2)They can be somewhat socially eleitist since middle class parents are more likely to have the kind of aspirations for their children that will push them into taking the entrace exams.
3) They can damage comprehensive schools by creaming off what would have been their best students.
1)Money can give you an advantage because some people pay for tutors to get their averagely intelligent children to pass the 11+.
2)They can be somewhat socially eleitist since middle class parents are more likely to have the kind of aspirations for their children that will push them into taking the entrace exams.
3) They can damage comprehensive schools by creaming off what would have been their best students.
But then again money is also an influencing factor in the comprehensive system, as middle class parents buy all the houses in the catchment areas of good schools and price poorer parents out of the market. Money will always find a way, but at least grammars give everyone a chance.
EssexDan86
But then again money is also an influencing factor in the comprehensive system, as middle class parents buy all the houses in the catchment areas of good schools and price poorer parents out of the market. Money will always find a way, but at least grammars give everyone a chance.
well bloody said.
DougieG
Grammar schools are a fundamentally good idea, but they should admit people from year 10 upwards to alloow for late developers.
they do? it's called the 13+.
They're hardly elitist, I went to one and it had loads of girls from all sorts of backgrounds in it. It was a good school as well, though I think it's gone downhill now.
As for people who might be intelligent later on, or not as intelligent, whatever, it's the way the system works. I moved to the UK 2 years before taking my 11+, passed it and went to a grammar school. My mother's friend has a son who had been here for 3, he failed his and his mum is now complaining to the authorities saying he hasn't been in the country for long enough to have a sufficient knowledge of English etc. Does that mean he's less intelligent than I was? Maybe. Is it the school's problem? No. Some people are better than others in one way or another and that's the way it's always going to be.
As for people who might be intelligent later on, or not as intelligent, whatever, it's the way the system works. I moved to the UK 2 years before taking my 11+, passed it and went to a grammar school. My mother's friend has a son who had been here for 3, he failed his and his mum is now complaining to the authorities saying he hasn't been in the country for long enough to have a sufficient knowledge of English etc. Does that mean he's less intelligent than I was? Maybe. Is it the school's problem? No. Some people are better than others in one way or another and that's the way it's always going to be.
There are times I wished I'd gone to the Maths school. Grammar schools are definitely a good thing, and I'm glad we have them in Kent.
aforalice
Basically
1)Money can give you an advantage because some people pay for tutors to get their averagely intelligent children to pass the 11+.
2)They can be somewhat socially eleitist since middle class parents are more likely to have the kind of aspirations for their children that will push them into taking the entrace exams.
3) They can damage comprehensive schools by creaming off what would have been their best students.
But then again they're great schools. I went to a grammar for 6th form and loved it after despising my comp. I would never be at the uni I am now if I'd stayed or would have the great friends I do, so in a way I owe grammars a lot so I can't find it in me to criticise them too much. But I can also see their downsides since I've seen both sides of the fence... it's naive to suggest they're faultless.
1)Money can give you an advantage because some people pay for tutors to get their averagely intelligent children to pass the 11+.
2)They can be somewhat socially eleitist since middle class parents are more likely to have the kind of aspirations for their children that will push them into taking the entrace exams.
3) They can damage comprehensive schools by creaming off what would have been their best students.
But then again they're great schools. I went to a grammar for 6th form and loved it after despising my comp. I would never be at the uni I am now if I'd stayed or would have the great friends I do, so in a way I owe grammars a lot so I can't find it in me to criticise them too much. But I can also see their downsides since I've seen both sides of the fence... it's naive to suggest they're faultless.
1) around 50% of our year recieved no tuition, or about 5 lessons prior to the exam to basically say what verbal reasoning was
2) There are a range of different people in my school - yes there are some middle class, but quite a lot are lower, tbh
3) Not really, I know a girl who got 11A*s and lots of others who did better than me at the comprehensive I would've gone to had I not passed the 11+
also: you wouldn't have gone to a grammar school for sixth form unless you'd passed an allocated entrance exam such as the 11+, 12+, 13+ etc. you're in a sixth form allocated area of a grammar school but apparently you can't say you're an actual grammar school student: only the people that passed an exam to get in and carried on to the sixth form can safely say they're in a "grammar school"
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