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Why do we blame morbidly obese people but not depressed people for their condition?
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Original post by AkDo
That's exactly it. Overweight/obesity is combination of many factors. But your own fault is there not because you are fat but because you didn't try hard enough to lose it. This comes from someone who's lost 30kg through mainly exercise over a year and a bit. Worked damn hard to become normal weight.
Wow. Well done man. What sorta things did you do to lose that weight?
The ignorance shown by some people in this thread is shocking. What is the point of this thread? All the OP has done (badly) is compare two completely different medical conditions.
Until you've experience it, I don't think you can really judge people with depression. I've had it a few times and almost killed myself last time because it's impossible to deal with.
Until you've experience it, I don't think you can really judge people with depression. I've had it a few times and almost killed myself last time because it's impossible to deal with.
Original post by delllboy
because one has a very easy solution to their problem. all it requires is willpower.
But sometimes people just refuse to cheer up =/
Original post by Skip_Snip
But sometimes people just refuse to cheer up =/
People with clinical depression can't just 'cheer up'.
Original post by Notethis
Yes you can. You work for happiness. Happiness is not the natural state of being.
I don't think that's always true. You can pretty much always decide to stop eating, but what if there's a disastrous cause of your depression? I don't think it's a choice to simply make yourself happy (or take the steps to) if your entire family's been killed or something.
I think happiness is the natural state of being for many, anyway. I do think this question becomes interesting though when you start examining the link between obesity and depression.
Original post by delllboy
because one has a very easy solution to their problem. all it requires is willpower.
the other is a serious and debilitating psychiatric problem which often requires medical help.
the other is a serious and debilitating psychiatric problem which often requires medical help.
A recent documentary showed that obesity cannot just be fixed by willpower. It's often due to epi-genetics and hormone imbalances that cause cravings for certain foods and leave one feeling unsatisfied even after eating. One of the few solutions to obesity is gastric bypass surgery as this corrects these imbalances, although care needs to be taken to ensure that bad habits aren't started up.
Both are debilitating and require medical help, but the lack of understanding about obesity is worrying.
Original post by Emielle
A recent documentary showed that obesity cannot just be fixed by willpower. It's often due to epi-genetics and hormone imbalances that cause cravings for certain foods and leave one feeling unsatisfied even after eating. One of the few solutions to obesity is gastric bypass surgery as this corrects these imbalances, although care needs to be taken to ensure that bad habits aren't started up.
Both are debilitating and require medical help, but the lack of understanding about obesity is worrying.
Both are debilitating and require medical help, but the lack of understanding about obesity is worrying.
will power is still the solution to the problem. the bodyfat is a store of energy. if somehow this energy was magically appearing from somewhere other than the foods put in your mouth then perhaps you should head down to the science department of your nearest university. scientists are constantly looking for seemingly magical sources of energy.
yes i know some people have genetics that lead to them gaining weight easily. i know some people have genetics that make them crave food more than others. you wont find any starving africans who are obese however. whether you accept it or not people are fat because they either cant stop eating or they choose not to.
Original post by JCC-MGS
Lol these two things aren't comparable at all, your four criteria for comparison are ridiculous and could apply to just about anything
Spoiler
Spoiler
There are more academic papers, of course, citing or reaching similar conclusions. It's laughable to read the pseudo-intellectuals (not yourself) coming on to this thread, claiming to possess any degree of knowledge by stating inane things like 'OH YEH UR JUST FAT COZ U DNT TRY HARD ENUF LALALALALALALA'. Both depression and morbid obesity, which is what the OP addressed, are serious clinical and medical conditions and the reason for the current perspectives on both of them is purely political and nothing else.
Original post by delllboy
will power is still the solution to the problem. the bodyfat is a store of energy. if somehow this energy was magically appearing from somewhere other than the foods put in your mouth then perhaps you should head down to the science department of your nearest university. scientists are constantly looking for seemingly magical sources of energy.
yes i know some people have genetics that lead to them gaining weight easily. i know some people have genetics that make them crave food more than others. you wont find any starving africans who are obese however. whether you accept it or not people are fat because they either cant stop eating or they choose not to.
yes i know some people have genetics that lead to them gaining weight easily. i know some people have genetics that make them crave food more than others. you wont find any starving africans who are obese however. whether you accept it or not people are fat because they either cant stop eating or they choose not to.
I never said energy was appearing from nowhere. The issue is that obesity isn't understood properly. Would you tell an anorexic they should stop being silly and eat more? Hopefully not, because you understand that's not going to help. Telling an obese person to stop being silly and eat less is the same thing. They have disordered eating. Yes, will power is a part of it, but this is also true of someone with depression.
The example of African people is nonsensical. Many people there are malnourished due to circumstance, not genetics or even willpower. There is simply a food shortage. Regardless of the fact that in the Western World there is a food surplus, not all of us are obese.
With this logic, "Whether you accept it or not people are depressed because they either can't stop being sad or they choose not to."
Original post by de_monies
Wow. Well done man. What sorta things did you do to lose that weight?
thanks
keeping weight stable is now hard :P but one whole month! when I say stable I mean keep it from going down rather then it's going up. Basically I started actually looking at where the calories in my food were coming. I realised that just slightly lowering salt little by little, taking out oil from my diet helped, skimmed milk instead of semi skimmed because they taste properly similar and using much more milk (for easy protein - scientifically proven to be as efficacious as protein shakes - I've probably lost more than 30kg fat because I've gained a fair bit of muscle too). Then adding vegetables anywhere and everywhere I could. I used to eat pasta, rice, noodles nice and plain. Thought nah why don't I add every veg I like in to lower amount of carbs. Then just do even 20 minutes of exercise just before you eat dinner (or even better - before every meal) and that'll be enough to lose weight slowly. Do NOT lose weight fast otherwise you'll gain it back. Just make permanent life decisions. Today I ate a few chocolates, nutella and ice cream and I'm still keeping my weight steady. Before it was anything I ate made me gain weight I felt... realised if I was strict and cut everything out I just bounced back wanting to eat more because I felt "restricted". No jokes, it's actually really easy if you're committed. This comes from someone who failed 10 or so times to lose it then said actually i'm going about it the wrong way
Original post by falseprofit
It's called practicing medicine for a reason.
Are you for real?
Original post by delllboy
because one has a very easy solution to their problem. all it requires is willpower.
the other is a serious and debilitating psychiatric problem which often requires medical help.
the other is a serious and debilitating psychiatric problem which often requires medical help.
And which is which?
Original post by Notethis
Yes you can. You work for happiness. Happiness is not the natural state of being.
Original post by KCosmo
Although psychological/medical factors can have an effect on obesity, it's possible (and likely for many people) that they are fat because they eat too much crap and don't exercise, thus not warranting any sympathy. Some people are obese through no fault of their own, but they tend to be the minority, whereas the majority of depressed people actually do suffer through no fault of their own.
Original post by delllboy
you work for happiness? really... well perhaps we ought to have you educating our doctors on psychiatric problems right now then should we?
no no doctor, depression isn't caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain such as serotonin. its because you aren't working for your happiness.
no no doctor, depression isn't caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain such as serotonin. its because you aren't working for your happiness.
Depression isn't caused by an "imbalance of chemicals in the brain" (a ridiculously oversimplified concept anyway, btw). It is an "imbalance of chemicals in the brain."
So we should sensibly try to work out what causes that state. Why people get into it and can't get out. And that comes from factors that, at one point, were pretty much in their control.
The equivalent would be to say that obesity is caused by having a really high bodyfat %. But, no, that's simply what it IS, and the cause of that is very complex. Being intentionaly dense and limiting our investigation to "they have no willpower lol, y they eat so much y?!"
If some people can be happy most of the time, we wonder why others can't and should think about that. If some people can naturally regulate their body composition usually without worrying too much about what they eat, we should wonder why others can't.
Both, mind you, are largely diseases of modern life. The root causes of both are kind of similar, I reckon. And many other disorders and irregularities.
in all seriousness it should be pointed out that there is a difference between having just a low mood temporarily and actual clinical depression. one is common and goes away after a few days and the other is a serious mental health problem.
I guess just like temporarily gaining a few lbs, vs. seeing your weight spiral out of control.
(edited 11 years ago)
Well obviously depression can be made a lot worse simply by the fact a depressed person will commonly act in a way that won't solve the problem (unwilling to talk to people, unmotivated, etc).
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
Basically, someone will eat and they will probably get fat, but someone could lose their job and not necessary get depressed. I think that shows that one is different from the other at least in where to assign blame for the condition.
I would say that although it can be boiled down to simple chemical changes, they are different.
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
Basically, someone will eat and they will probably get fat, but someone could lose their job and not necessary get depressed. I think that shows that one is different from the other at least in where to assign blame for the condition.
I would say that although it can be boiled down to simple chemical changes, they are different.
Original post by kikukaede
Well obviously depression can be made a lot worse simply by the fact a depressed person will commonly act in a way that won't solve the problem (unwilling to talk to people, unmotivated, etc).
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
But what changed or changes their hormones and "chemicals in the brain"? Does it just happen randomly and we can't, nay - shouldn't - look at why?
An obese person's appetite, activity urges and metabolism become deranged and these are the result of hormones and "chemicals in the brain" as well, just like the rest of one's mood.
Basically, someone will eat and they will probably get fat,
Everyone eats, not everyone gets fat...?
but someone could lose their job and not necessary get depressed. I think that shows that one is different from the other at least in where to assign blame for the condition.
How so?
I would say that although it can be boiled down to simple chemical changes, they are different.
Why/how?
We're given the over-simplistic idea that you get fat when you "eat too much", and that this is entirely within our control. No mention is made of the extremely complex matter of appetite regulation, changes in metabolism and nutrient partitioning (i.e. where the stuff you eat ends up in your body), motivation to exercise, and so on. It's supposedly just a simple calories in vs. calories out model and thinking about it any deeper is discouraged. It's seen as pointless and in poor taste to delve deeper and we're comfortable with fatness being hilarious and something to poke fun at.
DEPRESSION, on the other hand, is sooooo complicated (chemicals in the brain, man. Chemicals in the brain) that it's offensive to even try to look at the reasons for it. We can't possibly understand it and it's absolutely wrong to think that external influences (which the patient can control to some extent) could be involved. It's all just a terrible accident and we can drug the ****ers up and feel sorry for them. Maybe prescribe an hour of fatty mocking to cheer them up.
DEPRESSION, on the other hand, is sooooo complicated (chemicals in the brain, man. Chemicals in the brain) that it's offensive to even try to look at the reasons for it. We can't possibly understand it and it's absolutely wrong to think that external influences (which the patient can control to some extent) could be involved. It's all just a terrible accident and we can drug the ****ers up and feel sorry for them. Maybe prescribe an hour of fatty mocking to cheer them up.
Original post by NB_ide
But what changed or changes their hormones and "chemicals in the brain"? Does it just happen randomly and we can't, nay - shouldn't - look at why?
An obese person's appetite, activity urges and metabolism become deranged and these are the result of hormones and "chemicals in the brain" as well, just like the rest of one's mood.
Everyone eats, not everyone gets fat...?
How so?
Why/how?
An obese person's appetite, activity urges and metabolism become deranged and these are the result of hormones and "chemicals in the brain" as well, just like the rest of one's mood.
Everyone eats, not everyone gets fat...?
How so?
Why/how?
lol alright I don't know anything about the science I was just giving my two cents, if everything I've just said can without a doubt be disproved by solid science then fair enough, heh.
I should ask though, do you mean that obese people should be treated with more understand, or people with mental problems with less?
Original post by kikukaede
Well obviously depression can be made a lot worse simply by the fact a depressed person will commonly act in a way that won't solve the problem (unwilling to talk to people, unmotivated, etc).
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
Basically, someone will eat and they will probably get fat, but someone could lose their job and not necessary get depressed. I think that shows that one is different from the other at least in where to assign blame for the condition.
I would say that although it can be boiled down to simple chemical changes, they are different.
A fat person becomes overweight because they eat too much. They might be eating a lot because of various underlying conditions, but they are still fat because they ate. And I refuse to believe all obese people are that way because they have a thyroid problem or some other related issue - most are fat because they are greedy and like certain foods too much, simple as that.
On the other hand, although the depressed person may put themselves in the situation where they become depressed (mess up at their job for example and end of unemployed), the real reason this happens is because of their mood and hormones and chemicals in the brain.
Basically, someone will eat and they will probably get fat, but someone could lose their job and not necessary get depressed. I think that shows that one is different from the other at least in where to assign blame for the condition.
I would say that although it can be boiled down to simple chemical changes, they are different.
Why must the two be so different? Look at my post which cites a few papers that indicate a correlation between obesity and depression.
A recent study by Dr. R. Lusting and other academics concluded that an increased intake of sucrose above all other sugar types (fructose, lactose etc) essentially bypasses leptin production (the hormone which inhibits appetite), thus inducing people into a state of not feeling as full as they should. I believe they also found in a contemporary study that the biochemicals at work caused the consumption of sucrose to be addictive, therefore promoting a vicious cycle of overeating.
It should be said that Lustig is currently alone in his hypothesis at present but the point I am making is to not simply write off fat people as being fat because they have eaten too much. This same assumption was made not long ago about people suffering from depression because we simply did not understand the biochemicals at work which caused the condition to occur.
I am not trying to be definitive here and state that obesity is down to a purely biochemical reaction and the specific types of nutrients a person can consume. However, in the same way, I am asking you and everyone else on this thread who thinks fat people are fat because they eat too much to not come at the issue with so much conviction either. There is a lot we don't know about obesity and depression and there is no way we are even close to an answer for either, yet.
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