Ched Evans cleared of rape in retrial

I'm not going to argue about whether or not such a culture exists.
What I will say however is that true stats about sexual assault and rape are hard to come by. When people think of rape/sexual assault they tend to think of a stranger in a club or a dark alley. However, the reality is that most rapes and sexual assaults are carried out by people who know the victim.

Often this can be in marriages, or with ex partners, or with friends or even sometimes family. Many women and men who have been coerced into sex have commented about the sheer trauma and embarrassment that it has caused them. It makes them question their sexuality, it makes them feel dirty and disgusting. If they know the person, it makes them very dissuaded from reporting it.

If you are a man who has been raped by another man, it can make you feel humiliated about your sexuality, with many feeling ashamed. If you are a man who is sexually assaulted by a woman, again it can make you fee embarrassed and weak.

If you're a woman who knows or cares for the man personally who has raped them, it's incredibly difficult for them to report them. Many just want to forget it.


I'm not getting into whether or not rape culture exists, but what we do know is that both men and women who are victims of rape and sexual assault can be very reluctant to report it and it makes gaining accurate data difficult.

Maybe figures like '1 in 6 women will be raped' and '50 something thousand rapes a year' should stop being reported as facts then when they're little more than estimates from a flawed survey.

I remember debating this with you in the past and when I questioned CSEW figures you vehemently defended them but now you're doubting them?


Posted from TSR Mobile

Good. He didn't bloody do it anyway.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not such a culture exists.
What I will say however is that true stats about sexual assault and rape are hard to come by. When people think of rape/sexual assault they tend to think of a stranger in a club or a dark alley. However, the reality is that most rapes and sexual assaults are carried out by people who know the victim.

Often this can be in marriages, or with ex partners, or with friends or even sometimes family. Many women and men who have been coerced into sex have commented about the sheer trauma and embarrassment that it has caused them. It makes them question their sexuality, it makes them feel dirty and disgusting. If they know the person, it makes them very dissuaded from reporting it.

If you are a man who has been raped by another man, it can make you feel humiliated about your sexuality, with many feeling ashamed. If you are a man who is sexually assaulted by a woman, again it can make you fee embarrassed and weak.

If you're a woman who knows or cares for the man personally who has raped them, it's incredibly difficult for them to report them. Many just want to forget it.


I'm not getting into whether or not rape culture exists, but what we do know is that both men and women who are victims of rape and sexual assault can be very reluctant to report it and it makes gaining accurate data difficult.

I think you'll find he admitted that he did do it. The debate was about whether she agreed to him doing it.

Maybe figures like '1 in 6 women will be raped' and '50 something thousand rapes a year' should stop being reported as facts then when they're little more than estimates from a flawed survey.

I remember debating this with you in the past and when I questioned CSEW figures you vehemently defended them but now you're doubting them?


Posted from TSR Mobile

The CSEW estimates have improved since the 'flawed study' was carried out, which was between 2009/10 and 2011/12, and the findings weren't made public until the beginning of 2013, so that is a few years ago now. However because the newer findings weren't published in an official study, feminists keep repeating the old data even though it is between 4 and 6 years out of date. When you look at the most recent estimates by CSEW it shows a steep decline from about 2012 onward. The 1/6 figure is ******** though, again CSEW says something like 1 in 20 at most.
The graph here shows the newer information.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/files/2015/02/VAWgraph.png

It's flawed because of way the question on rape is asked; just because you've had sex and weren't consenting or lacked the capability to consent it doesn't mean you were raped


Posted from TSR Mobile

Eh? A man has sex with someone and they neither consented nor even had the capacity to consent, yet you think there was no rape? That sounds like the very definition of rape to me.

What's important is what he believed. In most cases where there is no consent there won't be a reasonable belief that consent existed but there can be. If you reasonably believe in consent you're no guilty regardless of whether it existed or not


Posted from TSR Mobile

What's important is what he believed. In most cases where there is no consent there won't be a reasonable belief that consent existed but there can be. If you reasonably believe in consent you're no guilty regardless of whether it existed or not


Posted from TSR Mobile

You're correct. Isn't there an issue though with basing it solely on what the perpetrator believes? The law seems outdated.

Surely the focus should be more on whether or not the complainant was actually consenting rather on whether the defendant believed they were?

Posted from TSR Mobile

I think it's a hard line to draw really. It seems harsh to punish someone for having sex with a person they believed was consenting especially when that belief is reasonable



Posted from TSR Mobile

The problem is the word 'reasonable'. It's so objective, what is 'reasonable' to one person may not be reasonable to another.

That's one of the biggest weaknesses of the law, it adds too much uncertainty. We are asking juries in effect t determine the law by defining what is meant by 'reasonable', which surely should be the role of law makers and judges.

No. We are asking juries to decide on the facts of the individual case, and the circumstances will vary. If a man has sex with an unconscious stranger he didn't see while she was conscious she obviously has not given consent and is incapable of doing do; any perception that she has consented would clearly be unreasonable. If she is yelling "Give it to me lover!" his assumption of consent is a pretty reasonable one. And, of course, there are cases in between these obvious extremes.

The problem is, in grey cases we are asking jurors to effectively determine what a reasonable belief is. That shouldn't be the role of jurors, the word 'reasonable' should be far more clearly defined.

We're asking a panel of twelve jurors and insisting that at least ten of them agree, without a reasonable doubt, that it wasn't reasonable before someone's convicted. That sounds ok to me.

Particularly as it's so easy to have a reasonable belief. All Evans had to do was to ask her before sticking his penis in her.

The apologists here keep saying that lots of sex is initiated without asking, but reasonable belief in the context of a relationship - or even a gay scene darkroom - is different to a reasonable belief having arrived in a room (uninvited, unexpected and unwanted) containing someone your only prior contact with was stepping over them as they lay literally falling down drunk in a kebab shop.

the word 'reasonable' should be far more clearly defined.