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Reply 180
Original post by hobnob
Ugh.:frown:
I'm having to redo some of my first-year research, which was extremely time-consuming and dull even back then, but now I've got to do it more thoroughly, which means it's going to take me even longer. I'll spare you the boring details (and trust me, this is *very* boring), but basically I've got to trawl through about 6,000 Short Title Catalogue entries, of which about 95% aren't what I'm looking for, but I've got to look through them anyway. ARGH!


I'm going to raise you one on the boring research :wink:, and add depressing... Back when I was a junior research fellow I was helping out on some AIDS research. Now, no-one actually dies of AIDS, they die of X disease (which they have died from because of their depressed immune system). I spent a few days doing nothing but going through life insurance claims from a large insurer, listing causes of death and age, trying to identify which ones were most likely to have been AIDS-related. The absolute worst, most depressing research I have ever done in my life :frown:
Reply 181
Original post by sj27
I'm going to raise you one on the boring research :wink:, and add depressing... Back when I was a junior research fellow I was helping out on some AIDS research. Now, no-one actually dies of AIDS, they die of X disease (which they have died from because of their depressed immune system). I spent a few days doing nothing but going through life insurance claims from a large insurer, listing causes of death and age, trying to identify which ones were most likely to have been AIDS-related. The absolute worst, most depressing research I have ever done in my life :frown:

OK, you win in terms of sheer depressing-ness of the subject.:wink:
My stuff is just as boring and time-consuming as looking through thousands of insurance claims, though. The worst thing is having to do it all over again, really, but unfortunately it has to be done...:frown:
Original post by evantej
Having not read what you have written, I am in a bind. Focusing on Wales and labour history hardly makes your parochial, at least in principle. In fact, it puts your in a better position than most nineteenth-century historians (Robert Owen and all that), but I suppose most people will want to know how your specialism applies to everyone else (i.e. which units you could teach undergraduates and all that stuff).


Well, my interests are broad. I have sufficient knowledge of nineteenth and twentieth history across these islands - hell I've read a labour history of the Isle of Man! - to be able to teach topics in British history (and Canadian history for that matter) since at least 1800. But that's not the point really. Labour history lacks any of the currently sexy features. Ironic that the field that started "impact" has suffered the most from it.


I am not sure whether I sympathise with your point about generalisations. It is not as if Britishness has particularly eroded national identities (I am being crass now, but I think the benefits usually outweigh the negatives). Unionism is one of the only ways I might be considered conservative so perhaps this is a topic for another day...


It's not about unionism or nationalism, it's about whether it's historically just for me to take my primary research in Wales and apply it (with a smattering of secondary reading) to Durham or East Anglia on the spurious notion that because it's British or England and Wales, it's all the same. If local history has taught us anything it is that the crass notions of generality rely heavily on assumption and less and less on establishable facts. The Durham and South Wales coalfields may be very similar but there are idiosyncracies which necessitate specific research in both to be able to make sufficiently strong points about them both. Whether the individual scholar is a unionist or nationalist politically is neither here nor there when it comes to scholarly integrity.
Reply 183
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
[...] It's not about unionism or nationalism, it's about whether it's historically just for me to take my primary research in Wales and apply it (with a smattering of secondary reading) to Durham or East Anglia on the spurious notion that because it's British or England and Wales, it's all the same. If local history has taught us anything it is that the crass notions of generality rely heavily on assumption and less and less on establishable facts. The Durham and South Wales coalfields may be very similar but there are idiosyncracies which necessitate specific research in both to be able to make sufficiently strong points about them both. Whether the individual scholar is a unionist or nationalist politically is neither here nor there when it comes to scholarly integrity.


This is not really the point I was hinting at though. You can keep your scholarly integrity in tact so far as local interests are concerned, and you are quite right to do so, but I think it is ultimately pointless refusing to place your work within larger dialogues. This includes the idea of Britishness. The only person you are hurting when you do this is yourself. It is simply a matter of changing approach, and it has the benefit of problematising the generalisations you dislike so much. By referencing the generalisations you can show in what ways English and Welsh miners were different, for example, and why it is important for us to differentiate between their different concerns etc., etc.. This is why I mentioned Unionism: I think both the local and general stuff has its place and uses.

This probably comes across very patronizing...
Reply 184
For those who have studied at Oxford, is it standard practice for the university not to upload its doctoral thesis to EThOS, or am I just really unlucky in that whenever I want one it never seems to be available? Is there any way round this (i.e. I do not want to visit to read a thesis)?
Original post by evantej
This is not really the point I was hinting at though. You can keep your scholarly integrity in tact so far as local interests are concerned, and you are quite right to do so, but I think it is ultimately pointless refusing to place your work within larger dialogues. This includes the idea of Britishness. The only person you are hurting when you do this is yourself. It is simply a matter of changing approach, and it has the benefit of problematising the generalisations you dislike so much. By referencing the generalisations you can show in what ways English and Welsh miners were different, for example, and why it is important for us to differentiate between their different concerns etc., etc.. This is why I mentioned Unionism: I think both the local and general stuff has its place and uses.

This probably comes across very patronizing...


It comes across not as very patronising but as ill-informed and somewhat unfair [a polite way of saying ... talking *******s, I guess]. History is continually placed into larger dialogues and "Britishness" is one way of interogating evidence certainly. I'm not really that interested in questions of British identity and Britishness, however, and am quite content to leave that to people who are. It's not the case that I've refused to place my work in those larger dialogues but it is the case that I'm less and less interested in Britain as an idea and as a model for history to be based on. I think there are more fruitful comparatives to make than simply tying ourselves down to nations and national identities. Indeed, at the moment, I'm very interested in the dynamics between Ireland and Wales in the early part of the twentieth century and I hope, if I get the chance, to actually write a book that draws together working-class people from the whole of the British Isles from about 1850 - 1950. It's merely that, whilst my grounding in other parts of the country is in secondary sources I'm not comfortable making the same level of statement about them as I am on South Wales which is my primary-researched specialism. It awaits the opportunity to get into the archives in other parts of Britain and Ireland and get to grips with it.

But to get at the heart of my original point. You cannot take a model of development from one part of the country and apply it generally to others. To do so removes any notions of historical agency from those who live in the other parts of the country and assumes generality of experience. Hell, you cannot even say there is such a thing as an English miner and a Welsh miner since the coalfields of England and Wales are quite different from each other. The South Wales coalfield and the Durham coalfield are most similar but compare them to small coalfields such as the North Wales one or Lancashire or Nottinghamshire and they sure as heck aren't. The geology of a place is different, the way in which miners live is different, the kinds of houses they have are different, home ownership levels are different and so on and so forth. It is by building up the local pictures that the greater sense of history is gained. It is not by generalising that history is understood. It's a pity that so-called "British" historians have yet to fully grasp that.
Original post by evantej
For those who have studied at Oxford, is it standard practice for the university not to upload its doctoral thesis to EThOS, or am I just really unlucky in that whenever I want one it never seems to be available? Is there any way round this (i.e. I do not want to visit to read a thesis)?


Oxford and Cambridge do not subscribe to Ethos.
Reply 187
Quiet panic. Unlike most people here my circumstances mean I have only one option for the course I want to do, and that is Cambridge. And just because I got in once before doesn't mean I'll get in again - different course, different circumstances, and that bloody research proposal. I've suddenly hit a severe self-confidence crisis. :afraid:
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
It's not really that I need search for work in Wales but that for a historian of Wales, it's more likely that Wales will offer the opportunity for work in the fisrt instance. If you follow my logic. I'm generally interested in leaving this ****ed up country into which I was born and so Australia, New Zealand, Canada, wherever would be great. My experience from the one or two of academic job interviews I've had now is that the RAE is killing our chances - as you said earlier. Maybe it'll change in a couple of years when that's over. Sociology, or at least historical sociology, certainly does interest me.

Either I'm very naive about my subject, or History must be very different. I'm pretty sure that I'd have a reasonable chance of being considered for a range of different subject areas. If I play the new media side of my PhD that might afford me a position in a Media and Communications department, or Media Studies. Whereas my social science background means I could apply for Sociology departments, or Politics departments like I'm in at the moment that want to widen the number of themes they cater for. At the moment it looks like I might be teaching Social and Political Theory next year, which is another specialism...
I just see the whole thing as being quite fluid. But perhaps that's because Social Sciences are very interdisciplinary by nature :dontknow:

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

But to get at the heart of my original point. You cannot take a model of development from one part of the country and apply it generally to others. To do so removes any notions of historical agency from those who live in the other parts of the country and assumes generality of experience. Hell, you cannot even say there is such a thing as an English miner and a Welsh miner since the coalfields of England and Wales are quite different from each other. The South Wales coalfield and the Durham coalfield are most similar but compare them to small coalfields such as the North Wales one or Lancashire or Nottinghamshire and they sure as heck aren't. The geology of a place is different, the way in which miners live is different, the kinds of houses they have are different, home ownership levels are different and so on and so forth. It is by building up the local pictures that the greater sense of history is gained. It is not by generalising that history is understood. It's a pity that so-called "British" historians have yet to fully grasp that.

I don't know what evantej's point is, but I don't really get why you can't be hired under the basis of research yet to come. Someone might look at your approach on the Wales case and think that you'd have the ideal skills and experience to do something similar for East Anglia. I don't see why you're assuming that what you've already done has to limit you, when there's still a lot of research you could be hired to do.

Also, as anybody applying for a PhD knows, its one thing to make a big deal about the relevance of your experience to 'x' theme a department likes or thinks is sexy, and another to actually carry that through once you've arrived. I have no pragmatic issues with stressing a certain angle, and then once I've actually begun the PhD/my research or whatever, working it towards another direction instead.
Original post by sj27
Quiet panic. Unlike most people here my circumstances mean I have only one option for the course I want to do, and that is Cambridge. And just because I got in once before doesn't mean I'll get in again - different course, different circumstances, and that bloody research proposal. I've suddenly hit a severe self-confidence crisis. :afraid:


I think it would be better for you and cinosia to see this sort of thing in terms of luck. There's a certain minimal level of competence you have to have for your application to be as good as everyone elses'. After that its about a whole bunch of things you can't know or predict, like the politics in a particular department... whether they're trying to increase the research in one particular area and not another, whether the academics there feel in the mood or like your idea...
I don't really think confidence should come into it.
Body found in the river this morning, less than 200m from my boat :frown: really sad and a bit scary, could have been us who found them. http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Body-found-in-River-Cam-29012012.htm .
Reply 191
Original post by scarlet ibis
Body found in the river this morning, less than 200m from my boat :frown: really sad and a bit scary, could have been us who found them. http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Body-found-in-River-Cam-29012012.htm .


Oh, that's awful :frown:


Didn't this happen to you?
Original post by Becca



Didn't this happen to you?


Yes! I didn't 'confront' her though, I had a nice chat about life drawing and exchanged details.
Original post by Craghyrax
I think it would be better for you and cinosia to see this sort of thing in terms of luck. There's a certain minimal level of competence you have to have for your application to be as good as everyone elses'. After that its about a whole bunch of things you can't know or predict, like the politics in a particular department... whether they're trying to increase the research in one particular area and not another, whether the academics there feel in the mood or like your idea...
I don't really think confidence should come into it.


Basically how I'm trying to view things actually. There are certain requirements, I meet them, now its well out of my hands.

I'm sitting here through going over some of my sources and reading, though, and just realising how cripplingly painful it would be not to do with forever and ever. :frown: I really love my subject. :frown:
Original post by Craghyrax
Either I'm very naive about my subject, or History must be very different. I'm pretty sure that I'd have a reasonable chance of being considered for a range of different subject areas. If I play the new media side of my PhD that might afford me a position in a Media and Communications department, or Media Studies. Whereas my social science background means I could apply for Sociology departments, or Politics departments like I'm in at the moment that want to widen the number of themes they cater for. At the moment it looks like I might be teaching Social and Political Theory next year, which is another specialism...
I just see the whole thing as being quite fluid. But perhaps that's because Social Sciences are very interdisciplinary by nature :dontknow:


History becomes very limited in terms of what you are expected to be able to do. A historian of modern Britain, it is assumed, cannot teach Ireland or the United States or France whether they are well read in those areas or not. You are what your PhD defines you as. It's equally impossible - from the point of view of departments - to turn yourself from the 19th and 20th century towards early modern periods. Apparently it's not straightforward in their minds to switch from E.P. Thompson to Christopher Hill. I think it's because of the inherent conservatism of history and history departments and you may well be right that Social Science is more accepting of interdisciplinary inputs from its constituent parts but I couldn't tell you one way or the other.


I don't know what evantej's point is, but I don't really get why you can't be hired under the basis of research yet to come. Someone might look at your approach on the Wales case and think that you'd have the ideal skills and experience to do something similar for East Anglia. I don't see why you're assuming that what you've already done has to limit you, when there's still a lot of research you could be hired to do.


Well, they might but in practice we're told that your PhD defines you to employers and defines your likely research interests for the years to come. In my case it's a bit *******s as I've really little wish to be hemmed in as a "modern British historian" as I don't think in British terms. But that's how you're seen. So unless you did comparative study for your PhD, no one really seems to take seriously your abilities to move from South Wales to East Anglia, for instance.

Also, as anybody applying for a PhD knows, its one thing to make a big deal about the relevance of your experience to 'x' theme a department likes or thinks is sexy, and another to actually carry that through once you've arrived. I have no pragmatic issues with stressing a certain angle, and then once I've actually begun the PhD/my research or whatever, working it towards another direction instead.


Well possibly, though I don't think it really applies when they're expecting you to be able to teach certain fields which is where the problem creeps in. It's the RAE that's killing our chances I think but I'm not sure I have 2 years to be able to hang on hoping that a) departments open up a bit more after it and b) the economy doesn't continue to contract and wipe away expansion. When you don't come from families that are wealthy, you have little fall back and in this current environment a PhD is a barrier to employment not a positive.
Reply 195
Original post by Princess Bubbles
:jumphug: How are you?


Good thanks, you? How's life treating you?

*am managing to keep a vague med interest going as some of my research is med related :colone: * :biggrin:
Original post by apotoftea
Good thanks, you? How's life treating you?

*am managing to keep a vague med interest going as some of my research is med related :colone: * :biggrin:


I'm good too! Life is good too! I am actually quite happy although I have lots of work to do. That sounds interesting. How have you managed to related your history research to med? :smile:
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
History becomes very limited in terms of what you are expected to be able to do. A historian of modern Britain, it is assumed, cannot teach Ireland or the United States or France whether they are well read in those areas or not. You are what your PhD defines you as. It's equally impossible - from the point of view of departments - to turn yourself from the 19th and 20th century towards early modern periods. Apparently it's not straightforward in their minds to switch from E.P. Thompson to Christopher Hill. I think it's because of the inherent conservatism of history and history departments and you may well be right that Social Science is more accepting of interdisciplinary inputs from its constituent parts but I couldn't tell you one way or the other.




Well, they might but in practice we're told that your PhD defines you to employers and defines your likely research interests for the years to come. In my case it's a bit *******s as I've really little wish to be hemmed in as a "modern British historian" as I don't think in British terms. But that's how you're seen. So unless you did comparative study for your PhD, no one really seems to take seriously your abilities to move from South Wales to East Anglia, for instance.



Well possibly, though I don't think it really applies when they're expecting you to be able to teach certain fields which is where the problem creeps in. It's the RAE that's killing our chances I think but I'm not sure I have 2 years to be able to hang on hoping that a) departments open up a bit more after it and b) the economy doesn't continue to contract and wipe away expansion. When you don't come from families that are wealthy, you have little fall back and in this current environment a PhD is a barrier to employment not a positive.

A PhD can be a barrier in so far as people don't want to employ you in basic jobs for fear you run off for something better as soon as the option presents itself.
I don't think its a barrier in any other sense though. I think the finance/business world are very prejudiced against it, but I think that's something specific to that area. I think they feel threatened by people who are overqualified, and I also think that they recognise that someone with a PhD will be very critically switched on. The last thing you want to keep the capitalist machine running is very critical academic types :p:
There are loads of trolls on TSR who love having huge rants about how PhDs/academics are less than dirt to employers, and to go on about their wonderful work experience. Makes you try and work out what it was we did to make them hate us so much :s-smilie:

Anyway... yeh I don't agree that its a setback. It is in some areas, but in others its an advantage. I'm sure it would be a huge help in trying to become a consultant for a particular issue. Have you gone back to Oxford to use their career service? Cambridge provide career help for all alumni, and I think they're good at bringing up options one hasn't considered.


I am actually paranoid about being pigeon holed in new media, or any other empirical specialism. My true interests are theoretical, and I want the freedom to move between different empirical areas, while working on cohesive long term theoretical questions. I really hope my area isn't as conservative as yours. Speaking to academics and other students though, I don't get the sense that it is.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 198
Original post by Princess Bubbles
I'm good too! Life is good too! I am actually quite happy although I have lots of work to do. That sounds interesting. How have you managed to related your history research to med? :smile:


Yeah, know that feeling :biggrin: I'm going to be looking at welfare/healthcare provision so have got to use Wellcome and the RCM quite a bit! :colondollar:
Original post by Craghyrax
A PhD can be a barrier in so far as people don't want to employ you in basic jobs for fear you run off for something better as soon as the option presents itself.


There's that aspect but there's also the fact that the jobs that are available here (and I don't really have the resources to move that far away) are either social workers, in the supermarkets or as Welsh-medium teachers. It's all that's left. So the time and effort put into the PhD has become a barrier to employment whether intended or not. I've tried not to be despondent, to lose faith in what I've done but events at work and more broadly have soured my view on the world.

Anyway... yeh I don't agree that its a setback. It is in some areas, but in others its an advantage. I'm sure it would be a huge help in trying to become a consultant for a particular issue. Have you gone back to Oxford to use their career service? Cambridge provide career help for all alumni, and I think they're good at bringing up options one hasn't considered.


I've not been back no, it's a bit far away and having passed through two universities now since I was at Oxford they're not really as close to me as Cambridge is to you.



I am actually paranoid about being pigeon holed in new media, or any other empirical specialism. My true interests are theoretical, and I want the freedom to move between different empirical areas, while working on cohesive long term theoretical questions. I really hope my area isn't as conservative as yours. Speaking to academics and other students though, I don't get the sense that it is.


History is conservative which is why those with more liberal mindsets in the 1960s either left the discipline and found more comfort in historiocal sociology or historical geography or simply worked outside the institutions of universities. So many of those scholars at Kings College and elsewhere in Cambridge come from that kind of background - Gareth Stedman Jones, for instance. I don't think your field is as hemmed in by its own petard as history is but I can't say for certain as I'm not as qualified as you!
(edited 12 years ago)

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