Prestige of German universities
Seeking advice on German unis, specifically the possibility of studying Maths and/or Economics for a year (2013-2014) before I go to university here in the UK.
(edited 11 years ago)
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AFAIK the nobels awarded to researchers at the max planck research institutes get added to Heidelberg.
if you're thinking about doing an undergraduate, the number of nobels awarded to researchers at semi detatched institutes you'll not visit during your studies is not really an important thing imo.
if you're thinking about doing an undergraduate, the number of nobels awarded to researchers at semi detatched institutes you'll not visit during your studies is not really an important thing imo.
Original post by Joinedup
AFAIK the nobels awarded to researchers at the max planck research institutes get added to Heidelberg.
if you're thinking about doing an undergraduate, the number of nobels awarded to researchers at semi detatched institutes you'll not visit during your studies is not really an important thing imo.
if you're thinking about doing an undergraduate, the number of nobels awarded to researchers at semi detatched institutes you'll not visit during your studies is not really an important thing imo.
I didn't say it was, I just said I thought Heidelberg was a top uni, having won so many Nobel Prizes.
You can't answer my question then? I didn't say I was thinking of doing an undergraduate, I just want to know how the German-speaking universities are ranked in terms of pure prestige, particularly for maths.
Original post by Kiwihoney
You do realize zurich and st gallen are in switzerland?
And we dont rank universities for prestige, so there isnt really a way to answer your question, sorry.
Posted from TSR mobile because a bear ate my laptop
And we dont rank universities for prestige, so there isnt really a way to answer your question, sorry.
Posted from TSR mobile because a bear ate my laptop
Hmm, so there's no general consensus on which universities are 'top', or 'better' than others?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by The Polymath
Of course, hence "relative prestige of German-speaking universities."
What do you rank them on then? There's no general consensus on which universities are 'top', or 'better' than others?
What do you rank them on then? There's no general consensus on which universities are 'top', or 'better' than others?
As unbelievable it must seem in Britain, but no there isnt. Nobody will be bashed because he went to uni a instead of uni b. the only ranking i could think of is the one of the "Zeit", but thats more about stuff like what are the facilities like (e.g. libraries), size of city its in and student satisfaction. And I only found out about it because I've been actively looking for it, I'Ve never heard anybody talk about it.
That being said, there is a "Exzellenzinitiative" which allowes some unis like LMU to call themselves "Eliteuniversität". But thats been initiated by the government. (I personally think that the sole reason for this was to be more like the UK and USA)
Original post by Kiwihoney
As unbelievable it must seem in Britain, but no there isnt. Nobody will be bashed because he went to uni a instead of uni b. the only ranking i could think of is the one of the "Zeit", but thats more about stuff like what are the facilities like (e.g. libraries), size of city its in and student satisfaction. And I only found out about it because I've been actively looking for it, I'Ve never heard anybody talk about it.
That being said, there is a "Exzellenzinitiative" which allowes some unis like LMU to call themselves "Eliteuniversität". But thats been initiated by the government. (I personally think that the sole reason for this was to be more like the UK and USA)
That being said, there is a "Exzellenzinitiative" which allowes some unis like LMU to call themselves "Eliteuniversität". But thats been initiated by the government. (I personally think that the sole reason for this was to be more like the UK and USA)
I take it employers would not perceive someone from Heidelberg to be a stronger candidate for a job than someone from some random university in Germany?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by The Polymath
So employers would not perceive someone from Heidelberg to be a stronger candidate for a job than someone from some random university in Germany??
Seems absurd, yes
Do they not have different entry requirements / quality of teaching?
Seems absurd, yes
Do they not have different entry requirements / quality of teaching?they do have different entry requirements, but they solely depend on how many people apply. if there are more applicants than places a uni takes all people starting from 1,0 in their Abitur until all places are filled up.
The quality of teaching is different but not necessarily better at "excelent" unis. Take for example LMU and Augsburg (my friend went to augsburg before being accepted into LMU), and while lmu might have more internationally renowned lecturers, the student/staff-ratio is much higher, so the teaching is not much better than in Augsburg. (The only reason my friend chose LMU in the end was because she prefered to live in Munich).
As for employers, they might ackknowledge the fact you went to heidelberg, but you will not be chosen over somebody from a different uni if you have the same kind of qualifications.
That being said, I do realize that people might have an advantage if they did their physics or engineering degree at RWTH or TUM, but thats rather because these universities have strong links with firms and stuff than because of prestige.
Original post by Kiwihoney
they do have different entry requirements, but they solely depend on how many people apply. if there are more applicants than places a uni takes all people starting from 1,0 in their Abitur until all places are filled up.
The quality of teaching is different but not necessarily better at "excelent" unis. Take for example LMU and Augsburg (my friend went to augsburg before being accepted into LMU), and while lmu might have more internationally renowned lecturers, the student/staff-ratio is much higher, so the teaching is not much better than in Augsburg. (The only reason my friend chose LMU in the end was because she prefered to live in Munich).
As for employers, they might ackknowledge the fact you went to heidelberg, but you will not be chosen over somebody from a different uni if you have the same kind of qualifications.
That being said, I do realize that people might have an advantage if they did their physics or engineering degree at RWTH or TUM, but thats rather because these universities have strong links with firms and stuff than because of prestige.
The quality of teaching is different but not necessarily better at "excelent" unis. Take for example LMU and Augsburg (my friend went to augsburg before being accepted into LMU), and while lmu might have more internationally renowned lecturers, the student/staff-ratio is much higher, so the teaching is not much better than in Augsburg. (The only reason my friend chose LMU in the end was because she prefered to live in Munich).
As for employers, they might ackknowledge the fact you went to heidelberg, but you will not be chosen over somebody from a different uni if you have the same kind of qualifications.
That being said, I do realize that people might have an advantage if they did their physics or engineering degree at RWTH or TUM, but thats rather because these universities have strong links with firms and stuff than because of prestige.
What do you mean by same kind of qualifications? Do you mean the Abi score, as you wouldn't have anything else surely?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by The Polymath
What do you mean by same kind of qualifications? Do you mean the Abi score, as you wouldn't have anything else surely?
I'm guessing she means the degree from the university :/
Original post by The Polymath
What do you mean by same kind of qualifications? Do you mean the Abi score, as you wouldn't have anything else surely?
I mean if you're applying for a job, and its between you (with a heidelberg degree) and somebody from some other uni, and you guys have the same degree classification, say a first, you will not get the job just because you went to heidelberg and the other didnt.
Original post by Nice.Guy
I'm guessing she means the degree from the university :/
No, because they're different degrees. That's like saying UK employers would be like "you have a BA from MMU, you must be the same as this BA from Cambridge". I'm asking what else they go on, as it's quite an unusual way of doing things compared to the UK and US
Original post by The Polymath
No, because they're different degrees. That's like saying UK employers would be like "you have a BA from MMU, you must be the same as this BA from Cambridge". I'm asking what else they go on, as it's quite an unusual way of doing things compared to the UK and US
That's exactly the opposite of her point. She's saying at the end of the day, it's just a BA in Germany, regardless of the uni 'prestige', so they would be seen as roughly equivalent.
EDIT: I'm sorry if this seems blunt! Only just read it back to myself
I agree with you though, that it's a weird system...(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Nice.Guy
That's exactly the opposite of her point. She's saying at the end of the day, it's just a BA in Germany, regardless of the uni 'prestige', so they would be seen as roughly equivalent.
That is exactly my point, thank you!
I know that
Oh I see, thanks. Is that purely within Germany, or worldwide, too? I would have thought that a lot of employers will have heard of some of the top universities but none of the others, and would therefore be biased, no?
Original post by Kiwihoney
I mean if you're applying for a job, and its between you (with a heidelberg degree) and somebody from some other uni, and you guys have the same degree classification, say a first, you will not get the job just because you went to heidelberg and the other didnt.
Oh I see, thanks. Is that purely within Germany, or worldwide, too? I would have thought that a lot of employers will have heard of some of the top universities but none of the others, and would therefore be biased, no?
Original post by Nice.Guy
That's exactly the opposite of her point. She's saying at the end of the day, it's just a BA in Germany, regardless of the uni 'prestige', so they would be seen as roughly equivalent.
EDIT: I'm sorry if this seems blunt! Only just read it back to myself I agree with you though, that it's a weird system...
EDIT: I'm sorry if this seems blunt! Only just read it back to myself
I agree with you though, that it's a weird system...Yes, I see now, it just didn't make sense as it's nothing like what it is over here. Does this even apply to the most elite of jobs? So things like investment banking, where in the UK/US the university you went to will mean LOADS.
The swaggies in Investment Banking always had to go to special institutions, specially in UK, USA, France, some private German business schools to raise their calculated chances but it has never been obligatory, there are many non-gone ways to ecxcel.
Most Cambridge graduates don't go to become Nobel Prize winners and keep cooking with water but as the school is very selective they entirely would end up in the top 1/3 of graduates among the 25 leading German universities.
Some initiatives as TU9 universities group and German Excellence Initiative are rather successful to rise awareness for German Universities and also to get researchers back from the USA to Germany.
The four academic elite institutions Max Planck Society, Helmholtz, Fraunhofer, Leibniz Society get closer to the leading universities to give them some branding and more cooperation.
For general mathematics also TU Kaiserslautern, TU Ilmenau, Jacobs Uni Bremen, TU Berlin, Uni Lübeck, Uni Saarbrücken are first choice, not necessarily having the strongest development dynamics, as the Excellence Universities which begin to hire from foreign terrain as the competition has become more intense. To get the best global students you sometimes need to be bad ass when you can.
;-) In doubt the master studies can at least be compared to the 7th grad of the Martin Andersen Nexø Highschool.
Most Cambridge graduates don't go to become Nobel Prize winners and keep cooking with water but as the school is very selective they entirely would end up in the top 1/3 of graduates among the 25 leading German universities.
Some initiatives as TU9 universities group and German Excellence Initiative are rather successful to rise awareness for German Universities and also to get researchers back from the USA to Germany.
The four academic elite institutions Max Planck Society, Helmholtz, Fraunhofer, Leibniz Society get closer to the leading universities to give them some branding and more cooperation.
For general mathematics also TU Kaiserslautern, TU Ilmenau, Jacobs Uni Bremen, TU Berlin, Uni Lübeck, Uni Saarbrücken are first choice, not necessarily having the strongest development dynamics, as the Excellence Universities which begin to hire from foreign terrain as the competition has become more intense. To get the best global students you sometimes need to be bad ass when you can.
;-) In doubt the master studies can at least be compared to the 7th grad of the Martin Andersen Nexø Highschool.
(edited 11 years ago)
Hello,
Are there Universities with more prestige than others?
Yes and No.
Short Answer: Compared to the UK/US/France there aren't, as for Germans it is more important what you learned and that EVERY university has a high academic standard.
Long Answer:
I) The German Abitur is much broader(and no resits!) than the UK equivalent, so to that make assumptions based and entrance requirements are to be taken with a pinch of salt. A German wanting to study Math can't just concentrate on Math and Physics, but has also to learn for a foreign languages, German, Geography... It is pretty complicated to explain all the differences and the pro and contras (e.g. STEP, IB, different Länder...), but it is possible while having a grade average of BBB at Abitur to still have an A in your Math examinations! (And as the students have less pressure than there British counterparts, as there is no elitist university system, they will also maybe not learn for the A in Religion(compulsary in certain Länder for Abitur!) and just get a D.
)
II) The competition for places is often less intense and there are a lot of very good universities. The range in the level of universities is smaller than in the UK, also due to the fact that our polytechnics are still polytechnics, the majority of students went before to selective grammer schools with nearly subjects taught who are regarded as academic, no elitist tradition, foederalism, another academic tradition...
III) There are Universities, who select their students being more or less severe, e.g. ETH (concerning mainly the foreign students, the Swiss students have it easier to get in), LMU, TUM...
IV) In Germany you rather choose your university following your personal interest, the town, ... Nobody will disregrad you because you went to XYZ, nevertheless the wrong choice for yourself (e.g. wanting to specialise in X with exchange to Y) can make it harder.
V) Heidelberg seems to be very known in the UK and the US, in Germany it is just one of the good universities.
VI) The differences:
- TUM has a special program which allows very talented students to do an accelerated program, leading very early to own research and a PHD.
- ETH has a lot of money, as TUM, but somehow the students see more from it, concerning "caring for them".
- Specialisations
- Name recognition outside the German speaking world, apart from academia.
- LMU and TUM e.g. take a little bit different approaches (theoretical, practical, Minors), leading to let students choose one over another, because they wouldn't like the "way of thinking/emphases" of the other.
VII) Concerning Investment Banking:
-> You have different fields: Mathematik, Finanzmathematik, Mathematik mit Nebenfach BWL/VWL, BWL, VWL (As you mentioned St. Gallen, which has no pure Math degree, but only Recht/BWL/VWL.)
-> ETH doesn't really gives you an edge over Mannheim and the other more known universities (as Bonn for VWL), according to the prestige, as Switzerland is very expensive and German speaking countries not that elitist, thus a lot of very talented students don't even bother going there.
-> The area of Economics can be quite picky and wether you choose to persue a pure Math degree or are more aimed towards Ecomics the "best" universities can change, nevertheless the range will be definitely broader than in the UK.
By the way, it is not my field, so I only mentioned the Universities I know something about and see in no way the mentioned universities as exclusive list, but only as examples. My main purpose of the post was also to let you better understand the system.
PS.: Prestige is perhaps the wrong word, some universities may be known as richer(although that is probably more important for subjects like engineering where you need big laboratories with expensive equipment), having more specialities or that the environment is "rougher".
Are there Universities with more prestige than others?
Yes and No.
Short Answer: Compared to the UK/US/France there aren't, as for Germans it is more important what you learned and that EVERY university has a high academic standard.
Long Answer:
I) The German Abitur is much broader(and no resits!) than the UK equivalent, so to that make assumptions based and entrance requirements are to be taken with a pinch of salt. A German wanting to study Math can't just concentrate on Math and Physics, but has also to learn for a foreign languages, German, Geography... It is pretty complicated to explain all the differences and the pro and contras (e.g. STEP, IB, different Länder...), but it is possible while having a grade average of BBB at Abitur to still have an A in your Math examinations! (And as the students have less pressure than there British counterparts, as there is no elitist university system, they will also maybe not learn for the A in Religion(compulsary in certain Länder for Abitur!) and just get a D.
)II) The competition for places is often less intense and there are a lot of very good universities. The range in the level of universities is smaller than in the UK, also due to the fact that our polytechnics are still polytechnics, the majority of students went before to selective grammer schools with nearly subjects taught who are regarded as academic, no elitist tradition, foederalism, another academic tradition...
III) There are Universities, who select their students being more or less severe, e.g. ETH (concerning mainly the foreign students, the Swiss students have it easier to get in), LMU, TUM...
IV) In Germany you rather choose your university following your personal interest, the town, ... Nobody will disregrad you because you went to XYZ, nevertheless the wrong choice for yourself (e.g. wanting to specialise in X with exchange to Y) can make it harder.
V) Heidelberg seems to be very known in the UK and the US, in Germany it is just one of the good universities.
VI) The differences:
- TUM has a special program which allows very talented students to do an accelerated program, leading very early to own research and a PHD.
- ETH has a lot of money, as TUM, but somehow the students see more from it, concerning "caring for them".
- Specialisations
- Name recognition outside the German speaking world, apart from academia.
- LMU and TUM e.g. take a little bit different approaches (theoretical, practical, Minors), leading to let students choose one over another, because they wouldn't like the "way of thinking/emphases" of the other.
VII) Concerning Investment Banking:
-> You have different fields: Mathematik, Finanzmathematik, Mathematik mit Nebenfach BWL/VWL, BWL, VWL (As you mentioned St. Gallen, which has no pure Math degree, but only Recht/BWL/VWL.)
-> ETH doesn't really gives you an edge over Mannheim and the other more known universities (as Bonn for VWL), according to the prestige, as Switzerland is very expensive and German speaking countries not that elitist, thus a lot of very talented students don't even bother going there.
-> The area of Economics can be quite picky and wether you choose to persue a pure Math degree or are more aimed towards Ecomics the "best" universities can change, nevertheless the range will be definitely broader than in the UK.
By the way, it is not my field, so I only mentioned the Universities I know something about and see in no way the mentioned universities as exclusive list, but only as examples. My main purpose of the post was also to let you better understand the system.
PS.: Prestige is perhaps the wrong word, some universities may be known as richer(although that is probably more important for subjects like engineering where you need big laboratories with expensive equipment), having more specialities or that the environment is "rougher".
(edited 11 years ago)
I know a guy who got 45/45 for IB and got rejected from Cambridge.
He was German, and applied to Zurich. I think he's doing better there.
I believe Zurich is roughly comparable to Oxbridge though.
He was German, and applied to Zurich. I think he's doing better there.
I believe Zurich is roughly comparable to Oxbridge though.
Original post by Bude8
I know a guy who got 45/45 for IB and got rejected from Cambridge.
He was German, and applied to Zurich. I think he's doing better there.
I believe Zurich is roughly comparable to Oxbridge though.
He was German, and applied to Zurich. I think he's doing better there.
I believe Zurich is roughly comparable to Oxbridge though.
ETH, TUM, RWTH, ... no big differences. At the time of the Prediploma you could e.g. just change from RWTH to ETH after a passed prediploma and vice versa. It comes really down to own preferences, although ETH has some advantages concerning Laptops, Mentoring, etc. Concerning the wishes of the thread starter, Uni Zürich may be also advisable. ETH may have a bigger reputation, although the other Universities work more and more on their branding, but within the German Speaking World ETH is "just" a very good university.
(Not to contradict you, just to shed some additional light on it.)
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