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Ampere's Law and Biot-Savart Law confusion.

To avoid making this a TL;DR I'll have to be brief but I can expand if it's unclear.
I'm confused with magnetic field concepts, particularly Ampere's Law. It seems to suggest that the magnetic field around an arbitrary surface depends only on the current flowing through that surface; for example, the magnetic field within a current-carrying wire apparently depends only on the current within smaller radius 'r', where 'R' is the actual radius of the wire. I don't understand why this is the case?... though I suspect I'll need to study at a higher level to properly understand.
I wouldn't have such an issue with this if it wasn't that the magnetic field at the centre of, and along the central axis of, a current loop has a definite magnitude and direction. Surely the same problem exists? You could create a closed spherical surface within the loop, like a football with a hoop around it, and since the current though that surface would be zero, there would be no field according to Ampere's Law?
I've probably misinterpreted Ampere's Law... but since many of the problems I'm now asked to address feature complications, like a wire inside a cylindrical tube of current, I'm getting a bit worried. Any help much appreciated!
Thank you for reading.
Reply 1
I do GCSE physics, so I'm not much help yet... but these websites seemed relatively clear:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/amplaw.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/biosav.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef9R3imCesY

They have diagrams and equations at least, so hopefully if your maths is a little better than mine then they'll make sense.

Edit: Think I understand a part of your confusion. The magnetic field your calculating is only for the particular loop that your talking about, so when you draw a circle inside a wire with radius r, when the whole wire has actual radius R, you're not working out ALL the magnetic field, just that on that particular loop. I may have gotten that confused but it's certainly what it looks like.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Benjamin.F
To avoid making this a TL;DR I'll have to be brief but I can expand if it's unclear.
I'm confused with magnetic field concepts, particularly Ampere's Law. It seems to suggest that the magnetic field around an arbitrary surface depends only on the current flowing through that surface; for example, the magnetic field within a current-carrying wire apparently depends only on the current within smaller radius 'r', where 'R' is the actual radius of the wire. I don't understand why this is the case?... though I suspect I'll need to study at a higher level to properly understand.
I wouldn't have such an issue with this if it wasn't that the magnetic field at the centre of, and along the central axis of, a current loop has a definite magnitude and direction. Surely the same problem exists? You could create a closed spherical surface within the loop, like a football with a hoop around it, and since the current though that surface would be zero, there would be no field according to Ampere's Law?
I've probably misinterpreted Ampere's Law... but since many of the problems I'm now asked to address feature complications, like a wire inside a cylindrical tube of current, I'm getting a bit worried. Any help much appreciated!
Thank you for reading.


Firstly, to avoid any confusion, stay clear of things like capacitors with amperes law, ampears law isn't completely general, and is only 1 part of maxwells 4th equation. Thats just an aside though.

Lets look at the mathematical form of Amperes law:

4125ace626e2bd298c5976f94077a660.png

See a larger version here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/4/1/2/4125ace626e2bd298c5976f94077a660.png

I'd avoid the 2nd term in this equation, it isn't necessary for you atm and may just be confusing. Look at the one on the left and right.

Lets look at the left bit first. In particular note the circle on the integral, this represents a complete closed path. In other words you are integrating round a closed curve. B is the magnetic field vector with a strength and direction, and dl is a infinitesimal vector pointing in the direction that you are doing the integral around. In other words, the term on the left takes all the magnetic field vectors, and extracts their component in the direction of the arbitrary path and then adds them together. Since we have a component, note the result of this integral will be a number, which is exactly what you would expect!

Now look at the result on the right, this is the number that you end up with. It has a constant, which is the permitivity of free space. And the current. The subscript enc in this case means the enclosed current. So if you have a wire that passes through your arbitary path, then the current passing through the wire will be the same number you get by the integration.

Note: in 80% of cases you won't need to do an actual integration, because the geometry is simple enough to just do a sum of dot products, or even just some multiplications.


The key point to understand is that the path you choose (represented by C on the integral) is completely arbitrary, the left side is equal to the right side regardless of C, provided that C is closed! So you could have a path that doesn't enclose the wire, but in that case the magnetic field vectors would end up cancelling and you would get 0=0.
Reply 3
Original post by QuantumOverlord
Firstly, to avoid any confusion, stay clear of things like capacitors with amperes law, ampears law isn't completely general, and is only 1 part of maxwells 4th equation. Thats just an aside though.

Lets look at the mathematical form of Amperes law:

4125ace626e2bd298c5976f94077a660.png

See a larger version here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/4/1/2/4125ace626e2bd298c5976f94077a660.png

I'd avoid the 2nd term in this equation, it isn't necessary for you atm and may just be confusing. Look at the one on the left and right.

Lets look at the left bit first. In particular note the circle on the integral, this represents a complete closed path. In other words you are integrating round a closed curve. B is the magnetic field vector with a strength and direction, and dl is a infinitesimal vector pointing in the direction that you are doing the integral around. In other words, the term on the left takes all the magnetic field vectors, and extracts their component in the direction of the arbitrary path and then adds them together. Since we have a component, note the result of this integral will be a number, which is exactly what you would expect!

Now look at the result on the right, this is the number that you end up with. It has a constant, which is the permitivity of free space. And the current. The subscript enc in this case means the enclosed current. So if you have a wire that passes through your arbitary path, then the current passing through the wire will be the same number you get by the integration.

Note: in 80% of cases you won't need to do an actual integration, because the geometry is simple enough to just do a sum of dot products, or even just some multiplications.


The key point to understand is that the path you choose (represented by C on the integral) is completely arbitrary, the left side is equal to the right side regardless of C, provided that C is closed! So you could have a path that doesn't enclose the wire, but in that case the magnetic field vectors would end up cancelling and you would get 0=0.


Thank you for the response.
I actually understand the definition of Ampere's Law. Your last sentence is the bit that was confusing me before. Why do the magnetic field vectors end up cancelling if there's no current running through them? Also, is C a closed loop or a closed surface? And if I took a path C within a loop of current, since there's no current running through the path C, shouldn't there be no magnetic field? And yet this doesn't appear to be the case.
Original post by Benjamin.F
Thank you for the response.
I actually understand the definition of Ampere's Law. Your last sentence is the bit that was confusing me before. Why do the magnetic field vectors end up cancelling if there's no current running through them? Also, is C a closed loop or a closed surface? And if I took a path C within a loop of current, since there's no current running through the path C, shouldn't there be no magnetic field? And yet this doesn't appear to be the case.


Its a path not a surface, this is extremely important to understand. Remember there is a law for surfaces, which is the magnetic equivalent of Gauss's law; and recall that it says that the surface integral of a magnetic field is always zero. Clearly this isn't the case with amperes law!

Try and understand my last sentance pictorially

wire1.gif

@: http://labman.phys.utk.edu/phys222core/modules/m4/images/wire1.gif

Now lets do a path in the plane of the magnetic field vectors, i.e perpendicular to the axis of the wire. The path I will choose to help you understand, is one which follows the arc of one of the circles, breaks off at right angles hits another circle further away from the wire follows that arc, cuts off again at right angles and rejoins to form the complete path.

Now, the paths at right angles to the circle we can ignore immediately as dl will be perpendicular to B so the dot product is zero. That leaves us with the two circular arc paths. Lets say the inner path has B in the same direction as dl (it doesn't matter because this will just decide which direction we move in), B is probably a bit bigger here as it is closer to the wire but the sum over dl is bigger for the outer arc, and notice that here dl will be in the opposite direction to B (B doesn't change direction between the arcs but dl will as you are returning). So intuitively you can see that they will cancel out.

I think I see where you are having issues because I had this problem myself a while back. No the path will contain the magnetic field, but the key thing to understand is the direction of dl changes as you move round the closed path. dl is a vector, and so is B, what you are doing is extracting the component of B in the direction that you move along the path so if you move one way, and then the other you are going to extract a negative. And of course if you move perpendicular to a magnetic field you will extract zero.

Finally understand this, there is nothing at all special about the path that you choose, it is completely arbitrary, you can choose any path you want provided that it is closed and amperes law won't fail (but like I say don't do it around capacitors, it will actually fail then because it isn't the complete form of maxwell IV), but you may get something completely useless like 0=0 in the case of choosing a path that doesn't enclose the wire.

EDIT: If the 2nd term in the equation (http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/4/1/2/4125ace626e2bd298c5976f94077a660.png) above confused you, then I would recommend just ignoring it and concentrate only on the left and right terms, you can express the RHS as a surface integral, but it won't be something you ever want to do, and it will just confuse you. Think of it as a path integral, contrary to gauses law of magnetic fields (or just plain gauses law) which is a surface integral.
(edited 10 years ago)

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