Fair summarry of the UKs 4 main Political Parties?

Original post by Relick

You're implying that all the parties should be perfect and have no faults whatsoever and that they must all do exactly what you want. Newsflash: you won't agree with everything parties do. They are run by humans, too. Why don't you join the one you feel closest to and change it from the inside, for the better (in your view). Surely that's a better option than just shouting boo from the sidelines. Alternatively you could propose a different system to the party system, and explain why it would be better.

Ruddy good point, well said.

I don't agree with everything the Labour Party does, but I joined the party because it's closest to my politics and I seek to change it from the inside.

People who whine about political parties but don't actually do anything about it (i.e. join a party and change it, or start their own) have literally no right to complain

Reply 23

I'd have no clue whatsoever as to how the lib dems aren't a protest vote but UKIP somehow are...

Reply 24

Relick

Original post by zippity.doodah

I'd have no clue whatsoever as to how the lib dems aren't a protest vote but UKIP somehow are...

Lib Dems used to be protest vote - then they went into coalition. All that protest has gone to UKIP or Greens now.

Reply 25

chrisawhitmore

14

Original post by MostUncivilised

I'm guessing you've never heard of Black Wednesday?

While Labour was in government up until 2007, the economy boomed while crucial investments in the health service, education and infrastructure were made. The debt-to-GDP ratio went down under Labour up to 2007 (i.e. Labour was essentially paying off our debt)

When the global financial crisis hit (and please, are you going to blame the American subprime mortgage market on Labour? Really?), the deficit went up, to be sure; by May 2010, the economy was growing again at a healthy clip. And then the ConDem coalition took power, slashing public spending and raising taxes, and drove the economy into a ditch.

Labour is the natural party of government, it's time to put the adults back in charge. Roll on 2015

Or to look at it another way, have you ever looked into black wednesday at all? It represented the failure not of the UK government directly, but of the EU's exchange rate mechanism (a precursor, as it happens, to the Euro currency). The UK pulled out and entered a period of sustained growth under Major. Come 1997, Blair's 'new Labour' are elected, and for the first few years, they stick to the spending plans of Major's government, and the economy goes well, even going so far as to breifly enter a budget surplus (actually paying off the debt) as the Conservatives had planned.

However, at this point Britain began to suffer for the lack of a conservative government. Instead of seeing the surplus as a natural part of a healthy economy enjoying the boom period of a boom-bust cycle, Labour saw it as the beginning of a new golden age of Labour economics, where they had, to quote Gordon Brown 'abolished Tory boom and bust' and having thus changed the fundamental nature of capitalism and ushered in an unending era of prosperity, they set about spending the fruits of their miraculous success.

Unfortunately for the UK, and Labour, it turned out that they hadn't performed a miracle, so when the bust part of boom and bust happened, instead of paying down our debt, they'd more than doubled it. They then started loudly proclaiming their inability to prevent a 'global crisis' with the air of a man who'd announced his ability to miraculously manifest bread and closed all the farms announcing that it isn't fair to expect one man to deal with a famine.

At this point, the controls were handed back to the grownups, with some unfortunate handicaps largely due to some particularly egregious Labour gerrymandering. They made necessary cuts, ignoring the IMF and Labour. The professional economists at the IMF recently apologised to Osbourne for saying that he was wrong to cut so fast. Labour are yet to admit that they were wrong (though they may be following in Brown's footsteps by simply refusing to admit they ever made a mistake)

Oh, and on the subject of 2015, you're remarkably confident for an opposition party with a ~3% lead a year before the election. Remember that last time 90% of UKIP's 2009 support went tory. If even 50% do this time, Labour will be 4-5% behind.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 26

Original post by zippity.doodah

I'd have no clue whatsoever as to how the lib dems aren't a protest vote but UKIP somehow are...

Lib Dems are part of government and have 57 seats. UKIP are not in government and have 0 seats

Reply 27

the mezzil

Original post by MostUncivilised

Thirty achivements of the Blair administration

... and 1 illegal war, a few million people dead and maybe slightly ****ed up the economy.

Three cheers chaps? Where's Bush? He should probably get in on this, I'll just call him...

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 28

Mike_123

18

Original post by Meenglishnogood

im not really fully verses in that far back. mainly looking at more recent governments. from waht i saw of last labour government, they had a period of boom and kept spending all public money, till there was little left and very high national debt (highest ever?). according to the figures mentioned in parliament today , the current governemnt has made the best economic recovery for a decade and big reduction in debt

Of course public spending goes up during a recession - lower tax revenues and higher expenditure in welfare payments. You can't blame the financial crisis on Labour.

Reply 29

InnerTemple

20

Original post by the mezzil

... and 1 illegal war, a few million people dead and maybe slightly ****ed up the economy.

Three cheers chaps? Where's Bush? He should probably get in on this, I'll just call him...

So much ignorance. :facepalm:

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 30

the mezzil

Original post by InnerTemple

So much ignorance. :facepalm:

Posted from TSR Mobile

Good solid response.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 31

Original post by MattBerry96

Lib Dems are part of government and have 57 seats. UKIP are not in government and have 0 seats

so any party, no matter its policies, is a protest party until it gets seats? is this (seats/lack of) the only criterion for "protest party"?

Reply 32

Original post by zippity.doodah

so any party, no matter its policies, is a protest party until it gets seats? is this (seats/lack of) the only criterion for "protest party"?

No, but the party in government and a party who are definitely the third party in British politics cannot be called a protest vote compared to a party who have not won a seat and the only impact they have really made is in EU and local elections.

Reply 33

SHallowvale

14

Original post by MostUncivilised

I'm guessing you've never heard of Black Wednesday?

While Labour was in government up until 2007, the economy boomed while crucial investments in the health service, education and infrastructure were made. The debt-to-GDP ratio went down under Labour up to 2007 (i.e. Labour was essentially paying off our debt)

When the global financial crisis hit (and please, are you going to blame the American subprime mortgage market on Labour? Really?), the deficit went up, to be sure; by May 2010, the economy was growing again at a healthy clip. And then the ConDem coalition took power, slashing public spending and raising taxes, and drove the economy into a ditch.

Labour is the natural party of government, it's time to put the adults back in charge. Roll on 2015

Original post by MostUncivilised

Thirty achivements of the Blair administration

Sources, please?

Reply 34

Original post by MattBerry96

No, but the party in government and a party who are definitely the third party in British politics cannot be called a protest vote compared to a party who have not won a seat and the only impact they have really made is in EU and local elections.

so you're just proving my point here that this criterion is ridiculous - are the green party are protest vote too? and when the lib dems lose the majority of their seats next year in westminster will they become the next protest vote? how is "third party" in a two party electoral system not a protest vote anyway?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 35

Meenglishnogood

OP

1

Original post by Mike_123

Of course public spending goes up during a recession - lower tax revenues and higher expenditure in welfare payments. You can't blame the financial crisis on Labour.

not the blame for the financial crisis (although the FSA was suppossed to receive recommendations ( or lack of) from the government, but the lack of foresight to curb spending at some pont an start putting away for a rainy day. as i said above the fact that the banks collapsed didnt cause the reality that there was barely any public money left by the time 2010 goverment took charge and debt was highest level ever. hasnt it been the tradition in past also that Labour has spent heavliy with abandon and left coffers empty

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 36

Original post by zippity.doodah

so you're just proving my point here that this criterion is ridiculous - are the green party are protest vote too? and when the lib dems lose the majority of their seats next year in westminster will they become the next protest vote? how is "third party" in a two party electoral system not a protest vote anyway?

I would regard the Greens as a protest vote as they are not a major party. Well if they lose the majority of their seats and a party such as ukip have a successful election and pick up a large amount of seats then they may very well become a protest vote once again. First past the post is not exclusively two party, i'd say it is more single party government.

Reply 37

Original post by MattBerry96

I would regard the Greens as a protest vote as they are not a major party. Well if they lose the majority of their seats and a party such as ukip have a successful election and pick up a large amount of seats then they may very well become a protest vote once again. First past the post is not exclusively two party, i'd say it is more single party government.

1) are you really saying that UKIP are a protest vote and the greens aren't because of UKIP's recent *success*?
2) the FPTP system creates duopoly constituencies for most of the time, if not safe monopolistic seats; in my constituency, for example, we have a marginal seat between the lib dems and the tories, so obviously it's basically jointly owned because it switches to and forth between the two

Reply 38

MostUncivilised

Original post by the mezzil

... and 1 illegal war

How was it illegal? In the United Kingdom, the executive, through the crown, is permitted to wage war as a matter of royal prerogative. Even so, the Blair administration sought and received parliamentary approval. In Britain, parliament is sovereign; if parliament voted in favour of the war, then axiomatically it cannot be illegal.

So I ask you again, how was it illegal?

a few million people dead and

A ludicrous overestimate. And even then, you're going to blame every dead Iraqi on the UK?

maybe slightly ****ed up the economy.

The economy boomed under Labour up until 2007, and Labour was paying down our debt in real terms.

Yes the economy was rooted in 2007, but are you really going to blame the American subprime mortgage market and credit contagion on Labour? Even then, despite a bad couple of years by May 2010 the economy was growing at a healthy clip. The Conservative-Liberal coalition then took power and drove it into a ditch with tax increases and public spending cuts.

I don't agree with everything the Blair administration did, I'm not even really a supporter of the Iraq War. But domestically speaking, they were a good government.

Reply 39