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The British Empire is worst than the Nazi?

Reply 320

djfj

5

They also "benefited" India through famines and massacres.

Original post by Ollie_16

the brits benefited India through trade and industrialisation just look at India now they have one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 321

AperfectBalance

21

Original post by djfj

They also "benefited" India through famines and massacres.

You think that might have also been down to the fact that other countries became more powerful?

Reply 322

CommanderKeen

11

The Brits invented concentrations camps during the Boer Wars. We can't blame the Nazi for that.
That's actually Soviet Invention. Commonly known as Gulags.

What you are generally describing is the Medieval version of the British Empire, Nazi and Communists are relatively knew, and came from societies that weren't that violent. "Killing all Jews" was not the default mode of thinking in 1930-40. Killing aboriginal was the default way of thinking, everyone would do that back then and aboriginals actively tried to kill British.

Original post by MrAngel

The Brits invented concentrations camps during the Boer Wars. We can't blame the Nazi for that.
The Brits though they had a god-given right to all the land of the world; 'a third of the world was pink'. Even using Australia as a mass prison while moving on/killing the aborigines. Is that worse than the Nazi idea of Lebensraum?

They also raped and killed women and children..
Both indoctrinated the average person to further the goals of the elite. IE Getting big men more power, money and worship.
An example of British brutality would be the utter destruction of Benin 1897 which resulted in all the cities goods being carried off to Europe as trophies. You may like to know that these have still not been returned to their rightful owners in contrast to things the Nazis carried off.

As is ever the case, the victors write history. Horrendous things were done by both but we can't forget the Brits did horrible stuff to.And the real sad thing is , they teach the kids growing up in school that it was all sunshine and they sat around a table and at dinner but they fail to mention how the Brits slaughtered my people)

Reply 323

CommanderKeen

11

Also, there was no India before British, just bunch on small backward kingdoms locked in a perpetual war.

Reply 324

AperfectBalance

21

Original post by CommanderKeen

The Brits invented concentrations camps during the Boer Wars. We can't blame the Nazi for that.
That's actually Soviet Invention. Commonly known as Gulags.

What you are generally describing is the Medieval version of the British Empire, Nazi and Communists are relatively knew, and came from societies that weren't that violent. "Killing all Jews" was not the default mode of thinking in 1930-40. Killing aboriginal was the default way of thinking, everyone would do that back then and aboriginals actively tried to kill British.

Actually the Spanish and Americans invented concentration camps but the rest of the post is right.

Reply 325

CommanderKeen

11

I really depends on your definition of concentration, if it is just force labour camp then we can go as far as pyramids in Giza... :biggrin:

Original post by AperfectBalance

Actually the Spanish and Americans invented concentration camps but the rest of the post is right.

Reply 326

AperfectBalance

21

Original post by CommanderKeen

I really depends on your definition of concentration, if it is just force labour camp then we can go as far as pyramids in Giza... :biggrin:

Exactly, the whole idea of camps/areas where people are taken to work and kept away from other people is not exactly something new and far worse has happened, like that time the turks urrounded a lage village and set fire to it, killing anyone who tried to escape.

Reply 327

Josefghdgbcfjg

1

Never *rule britannia, britannia rules the waves*

Reply 328

Zlar Vixen

3

Both were undeniably evil empires by any stretch of the imagination. But the English and the Germans look at "world domination" very differently.

England simply colonized vast swatches of inhabited land outside of Europe for the most part. With the exception of Northern Ireland, all of Britain's exterior colonies were located in North America, Asia, Africa, and Oceania. The UK has had little success in directly dominating any neighboring European countries.

The Germans however, operated on a "master race" ideology hence they attacked neighboring European nations first. So the difference lies in the Nazis which had a racial superiority agenda, versus the British that had political/military power and chose to extend their domain outwards. The latter was based on monetary imperialism (for lack of a better monomer), while the former was based on an inherent desire to wipe out every other race on planet Earth. By ideology alone, the British Empire was nowhere near as evil as Nazi Germany. When you look at overall statistics though (as in deaths, land conquered, and colonies obtained) the British outmaneuvers the Germans by an immense margin. So putting two and two together, both are two sides of the same coin.

Reply 329

Napp

22

Original post by Zlar Vixen

Both were undeniably evil empires by any stretch of the imagination. But the English and the Germans look at "world domination" very differently.

And what made the British empire "undeniably evil"? At least compared to any other empire throughout history.

England simply colonized vast swatches of inhabited land outside of Europe for the most part. With the exception of Northern Ireland, all of Britain's exterior colonies were located in North America, Asia, Africa, and Oceania. The UK has had little success in directly dominating any neighboring European countries.

You make it sound like this was a policy aim to take over the continent?

The Germans however, operated on a "master race" ideology hence they attacked neighboring European nations first. So the difference lies in the Nazis which had a racial superiority agenda, versus the British that had political/military power and chose to extend their domain outwards. The latter was based on monetary imperialism (for lack of a better monomer), while the former was based on an inherent desire to wipe out every other race on planet Earth. By ideology alone, the British Empire was nowhere near as evil as Nazi Germany. When you look at overall statistics though (as in deaths, land conquered, and colonies obtained) the British outmaneuvers the Germans by an immense margin. So putting two and two together, both are two sides of the same coin.

Technically so did the British. Race science being quite prominent when it came to gobbling up large swathes of Africa and Asia and the "barbarians/savages" that lived there.

Reply 330

Nick104

1

Such was the state of the world in those distant times and that's how the world was seen through warrior eyes and conquest was the order of the day a bit like the word Dictator, this was not offensive in the Roman Empire is a set term of office as the word empire is to the past generations a expansion of civilisation.We must draw from history not the obvious mistakes made in this expansion but the truths that the world was advancing into the future if not dragged.There where many empires at the time and it is assured the one that ended slavery and brought about the modern world and all its benefits and wrongs but was the benign compared to many other empires of the word. The word has past the days of empire and we must not rewrite history for a mere offence that is caused to a few or a mistake as perceived in our modern day eye-Yes the British Empire did indeed create a system of holding people in camps, this was a military decision and not that of the imperial parliament and was ended by the such parliament. checks and balances were imposed on the expansion of the empire and evolved as the parliament evolved and it was the British people, exhausted by the price of empire voted its disillusionment of belife.In our modern world we to see the destruction of minorities and habitat and this is caused by all of us who are now the new imperialists in our daily conquest in material goods and advancement. This is the greatest destroyer of what is or may be. The British have never been Nazis.

Reply 331

MRNO

10

Original post by MrAngel

The Brits invented concentrations camps during the Boer Wars. We can't blame the Nazi for that.
The Brits though they had a god-given right to all the land of the world; 'a third of the world was pink'. Even using Australia as a mass prison while moving on/killing the aborigines. Is that worse than the Nazi idea of Lebensraum?

They also raped and killed women and children..
Both indoctrinated the average person to further the goals of the elite. IE Getting big men more power, money and worship.
An example of British brutality would be the utter destruction of Benin 1897 which resulted in all the cities goods being carried off to Europe as trophies. You may like to know that these have still not been returned to their rightful owners in contrast to things the Nazis carried off.

As is ever the case, the victors write history. Horrendous things were done by both but we can't forget the Brits did horrible stuff to.And the real sad thing is , they teach the kids growing up in school that it was all sunshine and they sat around a table and at dinner but they fail to mention how the Brits slaughtered my people)

The left’s view of Empire is that it was just pure exploitation and suppression. This is a complete lie. The British Empire did more to advance civilisation than any other force in history. Let’s look at some of what was achieved.

Rule of Law. Most places we arrived had no rule of law. Might was right. We put in the British legal system which gave the vast majority of people far more human rights than they had ever had before

Trade. The left spout that Empire was exploitative and merely extracted the wealth of other nations. This is a lie. Empire was all about trade, creating markets for British goods around the world whilst creating markets for global goods in Britain. And huge trade between all the different parts of Empire. This massively advanced the economy of the whole world.

Infrastructure. We established and maintained the world’s shipping routes, road systems everywhere we went, and railways including the world’s biggest system, in India. Our plumbing was famous and on the Mediterranean islands we ran, Cyprus, Malta, Rhodes, Corfu, Menorca etc it is safe to drink the tap water!

Education. In many nations we brought literacy for the first time and created widespread educational reform. When we found intellectual superstars we often brought them back to Britain to receive the world’s best education. Look up Srinivasa Ramanujan.

Slavery. The British led the world in trying to get rid of this. The Slave Trade Act of 1807 made the slave trade illegal throughout the British Empire, the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 made slavery totally illegal. Between 1808 and 1860, the Royal Navy’s West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard.

When Empire ended it was often not replaced by liberal democracy, instead a venal, avaricious ruling class took over and treated whole countries as personal fiefdoms. Very many countries went backwards and lots of people in the world would have preferred to have the Empire back.

So far from something to be ashamed of, the British Empire was one of mankind’s greatest ever achievements. It created the modern world that we all live in and everyone owes it a huge debt for the huge advance in civilisation that it brought. The left are very wrong about this, just as they are wrong about most things.

Look at Hong Kong – since leaving Britain, they have suffered an oppressive regime – culminating in the population asking Britain to re-colonise them! If British colonial rule was so bad, why would they do that?

I think it’s easy to rubbish the achievements of Britain, nothing in life is perfect. The mere notion of perfection is idiosyncratic. The world is an imperfect place.

Reply 332

UnclePete

13

Original post by MRNO

The left’s view of Empire is that it was just pure exploitation and suppression. This is a complete lie. The British Empire did more to advance civilisation than any other force in history. Let’s look at some of what was achieved.

Rule of Law. Most places we arrived had no rule of law. Might was right. We put in the British legal system which gave the vast majority of people far more human rights than they had ever had before

Trade. The left spout that Empire was exploitative and merely extracted the wealth of other nations. This is a lie. Empire was all about trade, creating markets for British goods around the world whilst creating markets for global goods in Britain. And huge trade between all the different parts of Empire. This massively advanced the economy of the whole world.

Infrastructure. We established and maintained the world’s shipping routes, road systems everywhere we went, and railways including the world’s biggest system, in India. Our plumbing was famous and on the Mediterranean islands we ran, Cyprus, Malta, Rhodes, Corfu, Menorca etc it is safe to drink the tap water!

Education. In many nations we brought literacy for the first time and created widespread educational reform. When we found intellectual superstars we often brought them back to Britain to receive the world’s best education. Look up Srinivasa Ramanujan.

Slavery. The British led the world in trying to get rid of this. The Slave Trade Act of 1807 made the slave trade illegal throughout the British Empire, the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 made slavery totally illegal. Between 1808 and 1860, the Royal Navy’s West Africa Squadron seized approximately 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans who were aboard.

When Empire ended it was often not replaced by liberal democracy, instead a venal, avaricious ruling class took over and treated whole countries as personal fiefdoms. Very many countries went backwards and lots of people in the world would have preferred to have the Empire back.

So far from something to be ashamed of, the British Empire was one of mankind’s greatest ever achievements. It created the modern world that we all live in and everyone owes it a huge debt for the huge advance in civilisation that it brought. The left are very wrong about this, just as they are wrong about most things.

Look at Hong Kong – since leaving Britain, they have suffered an oppressive regime – culminating in the population asking Britain to re-colonise them! If British colonial rule was so bad, why would they do that?

I think it’s easy to rubbish the achievements of Britain, nothing in life is perfect. The mere notion of perfection is idiosyncratic. The world is an imperfect place.

" The British Empire is blamed for famines but rarely credited with raising living standards, or for the great cities it built such as Calcutta, Sydney and Hong Kong.
And a serious analysis of the Empire's economics shows that Britain probably gained little or even nothing from those centuries of rule.
However, the countries that comprised the Empire often gained a lot : defence, law and order, cheap credit, low taxes, technology, communications and profitable markets.
The biggest gainers were Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and the African Gold Coast (now Ghana).
The world of the 18th and 19th century was in a frequent state of chaos ; a civilised power- Britain- that provided law and order was welcomed by many.
This is shown by the fact that so few people were needed to govern it. And both Fiji and New Zealand amongst others actually asked to join the Empire.
And would Australia have been an Eden without Captain Cook the first European to chart its coast in 1770?
It is perhaps just as likely that Australia would have instead become a free for all for gun runners, rum traders, gold diggers and slavers, which is almost what happened to New Zealand and Fiji.

In 1903, the Civil Service's entire Colonel Office in London had just - in pre IT days -113 clerks. Imperial rule would have been impossible without local co-operation of its subjects.
Of course it depended finally on force and ruled many turbulent regions. But it used far fewer troops than the states that replaced it, such as modern India and Pakistan.
It is true that at times the Empire could be ineffective and maybe destructive. It is easy to pick out and capitialise on acts of violence and even sickening atrocities in its history. But that is true of every state or empire.

Take America. Few people today know a major cause of the American War of Independence aginst Britain, which led to the founding of the US, was our attempt to protect Native American lands from white settlement.
And it is rarely mentioned that the indigenous peoples and slaves overwhelmingly sided with the British.
Of all the accusations against the Empire, slavery is the most contentious. Most states in the world were engaged in slavery, and British traders were probably the biggest shippers of slaves in the 18th century.
While it is true that while Britain profited from slavery, our ancestors were also the most energetic opponents of that evil trade.
Britain did more than any other country to stop slavery, using its then vast naval power to police the African coast, and later diplomacy to suppress slavery in Africa, the Muslim world and the Pacific.
British officers of the Empire also worked hard to end female infanticide, genital mutilation, widow burning, cannibalism, head hunting, tribal warfare, and human sacrifice. Was it so oppressive to end these appalling practices ? "

This is quoted from emeritus Professor of history at Cambridge university, Dr. Robert Tombs no less.
Incidentally I agree with the learned professor in what he says from my own travels in former Empire territories such as India, Canada, Australia and New Zealand that the people there more often than not see it in a far less negative light than we do.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 333

Napp

22

Original post by UnclePete

" The British Empire is blamed for famines but rarely credited with raising living standards, or for the great cities it built such as Calcutta, Sydney and Hong Kong.

Seems a bit lazy to use the examples of cities we built to the detriment of existing ones. Especially Kolkata, given the abject state of poverty and depredation we left Bengal in.

However, the countries that comprised the Empire often gained a lot : defence, law and order, cheap credit, low taxes, technology, communications and profitable markets.
The biggest gainers were Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and the African Gold Coast (now Ghana).
The world of the 18th and 19th century was in a frequent state of chaos ; a civilised power- Britain- that provided law and order was welcomed by many.
This is shown by the fact that so few people were needed to govern it. And both Fiji and New Zealand amongst others actually asked to join the Empire.

This seems deliberately dishonest given the Maoris signed up for something quite different than being a colony..

This is quoted from emeritus Professor of history at Cambridge university, Dr. Robert Tombs no less.
Incidentally I agree with the learned professor in what he says from my own travels in former Empire territories such as India, Canada, Australia and New Zealand that the people there more often than not see it in a far less negative light than we do.

Dubious examples i must say, the Anglosphere countries obviously being favourable to an institution that placed them there. I say this as someone being far from anti-empire.
As to India, it was my experience that most people were utterly indifferent to the matter, their being much more concerned with eking out a living. That being said, the memory of the Raj from the multiple famines to the wars brought to their door have not been forgotten, especially in Bengal.

Reply 334

Napp

22

Original post by MRNO

The left’s view of Empire is that it was just pure exploitation and suppression. This is a complete lie. The British Empire did more to advance civilisation than any other force in history. Let’s look at some of what was achieved.

Rule of Law. Most places we arrived had no rule of law. Might was right. We put in the British legal system which gave the vast majority of people far more human rights than they had ever had before

You have literally described the basis for empire :rolleyes:

Trade. The left spout that Empire was exploitative and merely extracted the wealth of other nations. This is a lie. Empire was all about trade, creating markets for British goods around the world whilst creating markets for global goods in Britain. And huge trade between all the different parts of Empire. This massively advanced the economy of the whole world.

I'm not entirely sure you know how the economics of empire worked? To say it wasnt exploitative (for better or worse) is simply wrong. From turning the plains of Bengal over to poppy farming or the extraction of minerals from Africa. It might well have been about trade but a trade that was obviously tilted in favour of the mother country. Which isnt an unreasonable thing but to deny it is either ignorance or deliberate dishonest.

Look at Hong Kong – since leaving Britain, they have suffered an oppressive regime – culminating in the population asking Britain to re-colonise them! If British colonial rule was so bad, why would they do that?

Do you know the history of HK out of interest?

Reply 335

MRNO

10

Original post by Napp

You have literally described the basis for empire :rolleyes:

I'm not entirely sure you know how the economics of empire worked? To say it wasnt exploitative (for better or worse) is simply wrong. From turning the plains of Bengal over to poppy farming or the extraction of minerals from Africa. It might well have been about trade but a trade that was obviously tilted in favour of the mother country. Which isnt an unreasonable thing but to deny it is either ignorance or deliberate dishonest.

Do you know the history of HK out of interest?

Bring back the British! Most Jamaicans say they would be better off ruled from London

The poll, commissioned by The Gleaner, found that 60% of respondents backed this view. But 17% disagreed. A thousand people took part in the survey, out of a population of 2.7m. The poll has a reported margin of error of plus or minus 4%. Jamaica is due to celebrate 50 years of independence next year. It is not clear what main reasons the respondents had for their choices. But the island has struggled with high levels of poverty and crime. The Gleaner has interpreted the results as suggesting "six in every 10 Jamaicans...long for 'the good old days'".

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 336

Napp

22

Wishing for an independent Hong Kong isn’t so rare. A recent poll shows that one in six Hong Kongers shares that unlikely dream. But among the banned candidates, only Lai envisions Hong Kong retreating into the arms of the UK, which controlled the island territory for more than 150 years.

Not just Hong Kong but Jamaica also.

Bring back the British! Most Jamaicans say they would be better off ruled from London

The poll, commissioned by The Gleaner, found that 60% of respondents backed this view. But 17% disagreed. A thousand people took part in the survey, out of a population of 2.7m. The poll has a reported margin of error of plus or minus 4%. Jamaica is due to celebrate 50 years of independence next year. It is not clear what main reasons the respondents had for their choices. But the island has struggled with high levels of poverty and crime. The Gleaner has interpreted the results as suggesting "six in every 10 Jamaicans...long for 'the good old days'".
That wasnt the part i was questioning. I was questioning why you thought HK was a bastion of freedom before the handover? As opposed to the worlds pre-eminent drug re-exporter. At any rate, it was very far from a free democracy.
I am aware of our history there.

Hm, personally i cant see any benefit in having control of Jamaica. Aside from sunny beaches and a tax heaven (of which we are already well endowed) its a money pit.

Either way, simply wishing for previous times isnt exactly a good argument here. Many Kazaks, Uzbeks et al. wish for the days of the USSR.. Should Russia reoccupy those lands?

Yes

Original post by MrAngel

The British Empire invaded nearly every country in the world. This map shows the countries that they DIDN'T invade.
I always get amused when people in the UK accuse the US of getting involved in everything and starting wars. Like they don't even know the history of their own country. Almost all of British history is the British Empire starting wars and exploiting less advanced people. Be proud of your empire which was built on the exploitation of less fortunate people and starting wars with everyone who got in your way. Everyone at the time hated the British for a reason.
European colonialism is probably the main reason why Africa is as messed up as it is

Ad hominem

The British Empire is worst than the Nazi?

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