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M3 Elastic strings on inclined planes

I'm getting slightly confused with energy conservation questions that involve elastic strings on inclined planes.

The question is from the old Heinemann M3 book (Ex2C Q8):

Spoiler



My Working for the first part

Spoiler



After this I get x=-0.665m, which is correct, except I can't explain why it is negative [should be positive], when my positive direction was down the plane?

To calculate the change in GPE & EPE I'm doing (Final EPE/GPE - Start EPE/GPE) - should it be the other way round?

Also, I have a similar problem with the second part:

Spoiler

(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 1
Anyone?
Reply 2
Original post by ThatPerson
Anyone?


apologies that I cannot help at the moment
(very busy)

look at questions 6, 10 and 11 in this link while you are waiting for help

http://madasmaths.com/archive/maths_booklets/mechanics/m2_m3_elastic_strings_springs.pdf
Original post by ThatPerson

To calculate the change in GPE & EPE I'm doing (Final EPE/GPE - Start EPE/GPE) - should it be the other way round?



I think of it as:

Starting energy - work done by system = final energy.

Which rearranges to "Work done = starting energy - final energy".

I note that you have the GPE as positive, although P is below your zero level.
Reply 4
Original post by ghostwalker
I think of it as:

Starting energy - work done by system = final energy.

Which rearranges to "Work done = starting energy - final energy".

I note that you have the GPE as positive, although P is below your zero level.


I was going to put GPE as -ve but then I thought that energy is a scalar so it doesn't matter?
Original post by ThatPerson
I was going to put GPE as -ve but then I thought that energy is a scalar so it doesn't matter?


It matters.

In the case of GPE, it arises from work done against a force, in this case gravity. As the amount of work done increases - i.e. you raise the object higher - so its energy increases.
Original post by ThatPerson
I was going to put GPE as -ve but then I thought that energy is a scalar so it doesn't matter?

It is scalar, but the change in the value can be negative.
Reply 7
Original post by ghostwalker
It matters.

In the case of GPE, it arises from work done against a force, in this case gravity. As the amount of work done increases - i.e. you raise the object higher - so its energy increases.


Ah - That gives me the +ve answer. Thanks.

Can you see any error in the second part? The way I've interpreted the question, is that the system is still released at AP=0.6, but I need to work out the speed after P has moved to AP=0.8?
Original post by ThatPerson
Ah - That gives me the +ve answer. Thanks.

Can you see any error in the second part? The way I've interpreted the question, is that the system is still released at AP=0.6, but I need to work out the speed after P has moved to AP=0.8?


Not got time just now (bed) - will look tomorrow.
Original post by ThatPerson


Also, I have a similar problem with the second part:

AP=0.8,[br]EPE=20×0.221.2,GPE=2g(0.8)sin(45),KE=12(2)v2=v2AP=0.8,[br]EPE = \dfrac{20 \times 0.2^2}{1.2}, GPE = 2g(0.8)\sin(45), KE = \dfrac{1}{2}(2)v^2= v^2

Work done,W, against friction in moving from AP=0.6 to 0.8:

W=225g W = \dfrac{\sqrt{2}}{25}g

After rearranging I get v=1.63ms^-1 when the correct answer is 1.25.


For the GPE, the distance moved down the plane is 0.2, not 0.8
Original post by ghostwalker
For the GPE, the distance moved down the plane is 0.2, not 0.8


But A is 0 GPE, and P is below A, so when P has moved down the plane by 0.2, isn't it then 0.8m from A?
Original post by ThatPerson
But A is 0 GPE, and P is below A, so when P has moved down the plane by 0.2, isn't it then 0.8m from A?


True; my mistake. I was assuming that you had the change in GPE there, since you'd only posted one, rather than the initial and final GPEs.

Again, this would be negative relative to A.
Original post by ghostwalker
True; my mistake. I was assuming that you had the change in GPE there, since you'd only posted one, rather than the initial and final GPEs.

Again, this would be negative relative to A.


I just tried the calculation again with the -ve signs, but I'm getting 1.43, when the answer in the back is 1.25.

I'm equating energy at P with energy at AP=0.8 + Work Done

1.2g2=20(0.2)21.21.6g2+v2+2g25 \dfrac{-1.2g}{\sqrt{2}} = \dfrac{20(0.2)^2}{1.2} - \dfrac{1.6g}{\sqrt{2}} + v^2 + \dfrac{\sqrt{2}g}{25}.

Edit: Never mind, I was being stupid - forgot the g. Thanks for your help.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ThatPerson

Edit: Never mind, I was being stupid - forgot the g. Thanks for your help.


I was just about to say was the missing final g a typo. Good that you spotted it yourself.

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