US Presidential Election 2016 official thread
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Original post by HucktheForde
One thing i couldn't understand is why republicans love the confederate flag so much. Didnt their party freed the slaves and fought the civil war??
In the US, there was a period where Democrat were the "conservative" (or pro state rights, anti-govt) party and the Republicans were the "liberal" (pro federal) party. I'm no historian and the details (the devil is really in the details in this case) are pretty complex. However, from what I understand, throughout the century from the civil war to the civil rights act there was a process in which large constituents of the parties switched places. For example, the Southern Bible Belt evangelical Christians were largely Democrats, and now they support the confederacy.
Original post by Aj12
For quite a while after the civil war, and even up to today, many have argued the civil war was not fought over slavery, but over States Rights. The south was merely defending itself from an overreaching federal government. Slavery waa aimply one issue among many. So some claim that when they fly the confederate flag they simply want to carry on this spirit.
FoS has more or less captured how it should be seen though. I don't think anyone in Germany would get away with flying a nazi flag in the spirit of a more patriotic Germany.
Posted from TSR Mobile
FoS has more or less captured how it should be seen though. I don't think anyone in Germany would get away with flying a nazi flag in the spirit of a more patriotic Germany.
Posted from TSR Mobile
They argue that the confederate flag is a symbol of southern culture and respect to the brave soldiers who died for their states. One could eadily rebutt such arguement by placing the swastika in any given context. The irony is the right in america, in the south, criticize people for being un-American, im pretty sure that treason is as un-American as you get.
As for why the southern states seceeded, it was mainly because of the government being too powerful and too controlling, one example is trying to ban slavery. There are other reasons ofcourse
Every state in the confederency issued an "Article of secession". Four states went further and issued a "decleration of cause"
Whaat im really curious about is, did the southern states reslly have a right to secession.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Is there any chance that people aren't thinking about it in such a detailed way? That perhaps some people just see it as part of their southern identity, and don't directly link it to either slavery or any particular interpretation of the civil war?
Would you similarly allow modern germans to display the swastika in private/public properties in the context that they only see it in a context of a symbol of their identity and heritage?
Original post by Mentally
Would you similarly allow modern germans to display the swastika in private/public properties in the context that they only see it in a context of a symbol of their identity and heritage?
I don't believe I took a position on the public display of the confederate flag, so I'm not sure how you think this would be 'similar' to anything I've said.
Original post by Aj12
For quite a while after the civil war, and even up to today, many have argued the civil war was not fought over slavery, but over States Rights. The south was merely defending itself from an overreaching federal government. Slavery waa aimply one issue among many. So some claim that when they fly the confederate flag they simply want to carry on this spirit.
FoS has more or less captured how it should be seen though. I don't think anyone in Germany would get away with flying a nazi flag in the spirit of a more patriotic Germany.
Posted from TSR Mobile
FoS has more or less captured how it should be seen though. I don't think anyone in Germany would get away with flying a nazi flag in the spirit of a more patriotic Germany.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Sounds like bs to me. states right should not cover the right to make a slave out of man. No rights should.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by TimmonaPortella
I don't believe I took a position on the public display of the confederate flag, so I'm not sure how you think this would be 'similar' to anything I've said.
Surprisingly there is yet to be a bill passed to outlaw the use or display of a confederate flag in public property, obviously excludimg museums and other educational/research institues.
Original post by Josb
Still, he has broken the taboo of the Iraq war failure among the Republicans, and his comments were only shared by the far left and libertarians back in 2004.
I really doubt this. Most of the left was opposed to the intervention, not just the far left. Sure, it's good that he's managed to shake many Republicans out of their belief that President Bush bungled absolutely nothing in Iraq, but I don't think I'm going to give him credit for being clever after the fact, especially when this is done for no other reason but to add to his populist appeal.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by chemting
In the US, there was a period where Democrat were the "conservative" (or pro state rights, anti-govt) party and the Republicans were the "liberal" (pro federal) party. I'm no historian and the details (the devil is really in the details in this case) are pretty complex. However, from what I understand, throughout the century from the civil war to the civil rights act there was a process in which large constituents of the parties switched places. For example, the Southern Bible Belt evangelical Christians were largely Democrats, and now they support the confederacy.
The switch happened under Clinton. The Democrats dominated the Congress between 1954-1994, they even had several supermajorities. However, many Democrats of the South were rebellious and voted against Democrat laws.
The first stage of the "switch" happened in 1964, when the Republicans won a majority in Georgia, whilst the Democrats won most of the hitherto Republican New England states. The end of segregation shook boundaries.
Reagan never had a majority in the Congress, but southern Democrats (the "Boll weevils" ) supported him and he had a working majority as a result; he also won the Senate. Finally when Clinton tried to pass his healthcare reform, many southern Democrats were either defeated or progressively rallied the Republicans. Now both houses are dominated by the Republicans.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Is there any chance that people aren't thinking about it in such a detailed way? That perhaps some people just see it as part of their southern identity, and don't directly link it to either slavery or any particular interpretation of the civil war?
I tend to be a little suspicious when educated outsiders start attributing any level of nuance to general populations like this, especially where such visceral issues as regional identity are concerned.
I tend to be a little suspicious when educated outsiders start attributing any level of nuance to general populations like this, especially where such visceral issues as regional identity are concerned.
Possibly so.
I think you have to ask why the flag is part of their identity though. The value has to come from somewhere. Do they value it for what it represented during the war, or has it come to value something else? I feel it is important to understand why it has become an object of veneration, rather than saying just because it always has been.
My basis for saying the bit about states rights comes from two places. Firstly studying the Civil War and the impact it has had in shaping the South. Secondly from observing some of the arguments chucked around by Southerns and those who valued the flag when discussions about banning it were taking place.
It is a culture debate though, so I guess we could make an argument for anything and find the backing evidence.
Original post by Josb
The switch happened under Clinton. The Democrats dominated the Congress between 1954-1994, they even had several supermajorities. However, many Democrats of the South were rebellious and voted against Democrat laws.
The first stage of the "switch" happened in 1964, when the Republicans won a majority in Georgia, whilst the Democrats won most of the hitherto Republican New England states. The end of segregation shacked boundaries.
Reagan never had a majority in the Congress, but southern Democrats (the "Boll weevils" ) supported him and he had a working majority as a result; he also won the Senate. Finally when Clinton tried to pass his healthcare reform, many southern Democrats were either defeated or progressively rallied the Republicans. Now both houses are dominated by the Republicans.
The first stage of the "switch" happened in 1964, when the Republicans won a majority in Georgia, whilst the Democrats won most of the hitherto Republican New England states. The end of segregation shacked boundaries.
Reagan never had a majority in the Congress, but southern Democrats (the "Boll weevils" ) supported him and he had a working majority as a result; he also won the Senate. Finally when Clinton tried to pass his healthcare reform, many southern Democrats were either defeated or progressively rallied the Republicans. Now both houses are dominated by the Republicans.
Ah! Thank you for clarifying, I understand there was a switch (and it was slow process rather than an instant official thing) but I knew I misrepresented and missed out some details.
Although wouldn't you say the switch "started" with the Populist Party? which were farmers revolting against capitalist interests (e.g. banks) but pro state-rights... so essentially giving the Democratic party a left wing platform? Although you are right, the end of segregation was probably the bigger factor here.
Original post by Mentally
Surprisingly there is yet to be a bill passed to outlaw the use or display of a confederate flag in public property, obviously excludimg museums and other educational/research institues.
Displaying the Confederate Flag is "speech" under the US Constitution and any restrictions on free speech have to meet an exceptionally high threshold to be held constitutional.
It is also why despite umpteen attempts to ban the practice, burning the US flag has remained legal. As the late Justice Scalia (the sort of guy who regarded Genghis Khan as a dangerous liberal) said:-“If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing, scruffy-bearded weirdo who burns the American flag, But I am not king.”
Original post by HucktheForde
One thing i couldn't understand is why republicans love the confederate flag so much. Didnt their party freed the slaves and fought the civil war??
Republicans don't love the confederate flag. I've actually never heard that before. Just because someone doesn't support banning something doesn't mean they love it.
They love the 1st amendment and the constitution.
The courts have ruled many times that the uses of flags are a form of free speech
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Is there any chance that people aren't thinking about it in such a detailed way? That perhaps some people just see it as part of their southern identity, and don't directly link it to either slavery or any particular interpretation of the civil war?
I tend to be a little suspicious when educated outsiders start attributing any level of nuance to general populations like this, especially where such visceral issues as regional identity are concerned.
I tend to be a little suspicious when educated outsiders start attributing any level of nuance to general populations like this, especially where such visceral issues as regional identity are concerned.
Can I throw one thought into the mix.
Hazzard County is supposedly in Georgia. The Dukes of Hazzard drive round in a car with a Confederate flag on the roof. That car is called the General Lee. The scene setting is lifted from every stereotype of post-war life in the American south one an imagine; with one exception.
The Dukes of Hazzard was shown from 1985, that is twenty years after Sidney Poitier went to Mississippi In the Heat of the Night.
The Dukes of Hazzard does not have oppressed blacks; it doesn't have dangerous blacks; it doesn't have uppity blacks; it doesn't have any black characters at all. An affectionate, but somewhat patronising, TV show about stereotypes of the American South was absolutely mono-racial, and basically no-one noticed.
To put matters in context, not only wee there black characters in Weatherfield and Albert Square by the time the show started, before it finished there was an Indian one in Ambridge.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Although nowadays they claim it's nothing to do with celebrating slavery, there can be no doubt that it remains the number one symbol for white power in the South and the people who display it on their cars and houses are making a public statement that they support a racist agenda and politics.
That's why they get in such a fury when there are proposals to not display it outside government buildings, etc. It's pure reactionary hate and white superiority at work.
That's why they get in such a fury when there are proposals to not display it outside government buildings, etc. It's pure reactionary hate and white superiority at work.
That's absolutely ludicrous. You think when the Dukes of Hazzard was filmed in the late1970s they wanted to make "a public statement that they support a racist agenda and politics" by painting the flag on the roof of their car? It was only a few decades later that people in universities or non-americans such as yourself who have no clue about america or american culture started attributing negative qualities to the flag.
I'm a YANKEE, was raised in New York and Connecticut, but I'm smart enough to know the flag isn't a racist symbol. The flag is a battle flag. It was never used as the flag of the confederacy. The confederacy had many flags and this wasn't one of them. The civil war was fought for many reasons and slavery was only one of them. Many people were fighting for state's rights. The southern states succeeded from the north. They wanted to do things their own way and be independent and never declared war against the north.
When you see people flying the flag it could mean american individuality, american independence, a symbol to honor all the lives that were lost.
Original post by Made in the USA
That's absolutely ludicrous. You think when the Dukes of Hazzard was filmed in the late1970s they wanted to make "a public statement that they support a racist agenda and politics" by painting the flag on the roof of their car? It was only a few decades later that people in universities or non-americans such as yourself who have no clue about america or american culture started attributing negative qualities to the flag.
I'm a YANKEE, was raised in New York and Connecticut, but I'm smart enough to know the flag isn't a racist symbol. The flag is a battle flag. It was never used as the flag of the confederacy. The confederacy had many flags and this wasn't one of them. The civil war was fought for many reasons and slavery was only one of them. Many people were fighting for state's rights. The southern states succeeded from the north. They wanted to do things their own way and be independent and never declared war against the north.
When you see people flying the flag it could mean american individuality, american independence, a symbol to honor all the lives that were lost.
I'm a YANKEE, was raised in New York and Connecticut, but I'm smart enough to know the flag isn't a racist symbol. The flag is a battle flag. It was never used as the flag of the confederacy. The confederacy had many flags and this wasn't one of them. The civil war was fought for many reasons and slavery was only one of them. Many people were fighting for state's rights. The southern states succeeded from the north. They wanted to do things their own way and be independent and never declared war against the north.
When you see people flying the flag it could mean american individuality, american independence, a symbol to honor all the lives that were lost.
The Constitution of the Confederate States of America, is literally identical, word for word, to that of the Union, with the exception of the right to own slaves.
This is such a cop out I always hear from White racists, 'it was about State's right bro, swear down man', yeah the only additional right the Dixies wanted was the right to own slaves, so stop insulting everyone's intelligence with your racist lies.
Original post by Made in the USA
Republicans don't love the confederate flag. I've actually never heard that before. Just because someone doesn't support banning something doesn't mean they love it.
They love the 1st amendment and the constitution.
The courts have ruled many times that the uses of flags are a form of free speech
They love the 1st amendment and the constitution.
The courts have ruled many times that the uses of flags are a form of free speech
in the south it is quite clear that they fly it all the ****ing time.
It's interesting to read what a black Southern Baptist from Kentucky feels when he sees the Confederate flag.
http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/what_the_confederate_flag_represents_to_african_americans
http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/what_the_confederate_flag_represents_to_african_americans
Original post by Mahmoud X
The Constitution of the Confederate States of America, is literally identical, word for word, to that of the Union, with the exception of the right to own slaves.
This is such a cop out I always hear from White racists, 'it was about State's right bro, swear down man', yeah the only additional right the Dixies wanted was the right to own slaves, so stop insulting everyone's intelligence with your racist lies.
This is such a cop out I always hear from White racists, 'it was about State's right bro, swear down man', yeah the only additional right the Dixies wanted was the right to own slaves, so stop insulting everyone's intelligence with your racist lies.
But transpose the issue to today. There are plenty of people who wish to leave the EU because they are racist and wish to control immigration for racist reasons. But there are plenty more who wish to leave for reasons of sovereignty that have nothing to immigration or if they are to do with immigration, do not have a racist component. There are others who see the European economic model as a threat to their prosperity as there were many in the Southern states who saw the industrialising North and developing West as a threat to their prosperity.
In 20, 30, 150 years if we stay in the EU, the narrative may be that it was only a bunch of racists who wanted to leave, but it doesn't feel like that as one is living the situation.
Original post by nulli tertius
There are plenty of people who wish to leave the EU because they are racist and wish to control immigration for racist reasons.
Not to derail the conversation, but racist against whom, exactly? Slightly less white southern Europeans? Surely any white racist who wants to control immigration for this reason should be pro-EU immigration and anti-Commonwealth/other immigration?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's interesting to read what a black Southern Baptist from Kentucky feels when he sees the Confederate flag.
http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/what_the_confederate_flag_represents_to_african_americans
http://www.worldmag.com/2015/06/what_the_confederate_flag_represents_to_african_americans
The problem is of course, is that he is by definition unrepresentative, merely because he has a written a magazine article about his views and not about the price of gas or involvement in Iraq or fracking or any other political issue he could have chosen to prioritise.
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