Socialism is the major threat to humanity
I was just looking at the Wikipedia article on Mussolini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini and followed the links to his leadership of the Italian International Socialists (PSI). There can be no doubt that, as a socialist, he was as important as Lenin in 20th century history, having been largely responsible for both the communist insurrections at the end of WWI and National Socialism.
Hitler's first National Socialist manifesto, his 25 point plan is very Corbynist:
9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
The way that modern international socialists have managed to characterise national socialism as a nationalist movement rather than as a socialist ideology shared by Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Vichy France etc is amazing. Kids are being taught at school that caring for your countrymen is the first step to Nazism when it was the nation states of Europe that opposed the ideologues.
Hitler's first National Socialist manifesto, his 25 point plan is very Corbynist:
9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
The way that modern international socialists have managed to characterise national socialism as a nationalist movement rather than as a socialist ideology shared by Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Vichy France etc is amazing. Kids are being taught at school that caring for your countrymen is the first step to Nazism when it was the nation states of Europe that opposed the ideologues.
(edited 8 years ago)
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Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Original post by Bornblue
Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Hitler had many socialist policies, hence he was a national socialist, although admittedly he did drop some of them to secure the support of the large corporations. I know he was far-right but when it comes down to it, is there really much difference, in practise, between far-lefts and far-rights?
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So why did they outlaw unions they didn't like? Equal rites? Does that apply to the Jews, communists, anarchists, dissidents or other undesirables?
People like Hitler, Mussolini or Lenin all supported the kind of things you are talking about because it lets them get power. Whether they believe in it or not is another question. It isn't as simple to describe fascism as far right for the reasons you have posted above, like you said it has some economically left wing policies. I would describe it as more extreme authoritarian centrism. Everyone is part of this oppressive state that stamps on individual agency and liberty, everyone is just a cog in a massive meat grinder where the nation state is all that matters. There is a element of collectivism to it, which is an example of where left wing intentions/sentiments can lead to hell. When you look at what Bolshevism was and lead to in Russia it looks very similar to fascism.
But having left wing statist policies does not lead to fascism by default. Are we a fascist country because we have a national health service? Our welfare state was designed by a liberal called Beveridge, with regards to how individuals should interact with the state, liberalism and fascism are diametrically apposed to each other. Although this is another example of not just blindingly accepting labels people give themselves in power, these liberals often supported eugenic type policies that would remind one now of the Nazis.
We have the concept of freedom of speech, the concept of individual liberty, rule of law etc. In the same that just because Pinochet enacted right wing neolibereral economic policies from what was essentially a fascist like platform does not mean Thatcher brought fascism to the UK. So Corbyn is not a fascist.
People like Hitler, Mussolini or Lenin all supported the kind of things you are talking about because it lets them get power. Whether they believe in it or not is another question. It isn't as simple to describe fascism as far right for the reasons you have posted above, like you said it has some economically left wing policies. I would describe it as more extreme authoritarian centrism. Everyone is part of this oppressive state that stamps on individual agency and liberty, everyone is just a cog in a massive meat grinder where the nation state is all that matters. There is a element of collectivism to it, which is an example of where left wing intentions/sentiments can lead to hell. When you look at what Bolshevism was and lead to in Russia it looks very similar to fascism.
But having left wing statist policies does not lead to fascism by default. Are we a fascist country because we have a national health service? Our welfare state was designed by a liberal called Beveridge, with regards to how individuals should interact with the state, liberalism and fascism are diametrically apposed to each other. Although this is another example of not just blindingly accepting labels people give themselves in power, these liberals often supported eugenic type policies that would remind one now of the Nazis.
We have the concept of freedom of speech, the concept of individual liberty, rule of law etc. In the same that just because Pinochet enacted right wing neolibereral economic policies from what was essentially a fascist like platform does not mean Thatcher brought fascism to the UK. So Corbyn is not a fascist.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Bornblue
Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Mussolini started out as a socialist. Though I'm not really sure how the op has linked this to corbyn being inspired by Hitler.
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Original post by Bornblue
Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Mussolini was one of the most important socialists in 20th century history. He not only built the most powerful socialist party in Europe in 1912 but financed the exile of Lenin, Luxembourg and other revolutionaries in Switzerland.
Hitler issued the socialist manifesto shown at the beginning of this thread, a manifesto that might make Corbyn proud.
The fact that you have been taught that National Socialism is the opposite of "Socialism" just shows the influence of International Socialists, the facts are at variance with this interpretation. You do know that Russia and Germany were allies at the outbreak of WWII?
Original post by spurs9393
Hitler had many socialist policies, hence he was a national socialist, although admittedly he did drop some of them to secure the support of the large corporations. I know he was far-right but when it comes down to it, is there really much difference, in practise, between far-lefts and far-rights?
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"Right" and "Left" originally referred to where groups sat in the French revolutionary assembly.
The Chinese, Eritreans and North Koreans are modern fascists, National Socialists, although they call themselves "Marxist-Leninist".
"Left" and "Right" are terms used by socialists to differentiate International Socialism from National Socialism. The press use them to differentiate internationalists from anyone who puts their fellow citizens in their own country first (ie: democrats who look after their constituencies).
Original post by Aj12
Mussolini started out as a socialist. Though I'm not really sure how the op has linked this to corbyn being inspired by Hitler.
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Just read the manifesto at the start of the thread to discover the link.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
So why did they outlaw unions they didn't like? Equal rites? Does that apply to the Jews, communists, anarchists, dissidents or other undesirables?
These are normal Socialist actions - the Crimea was only empty of Tartars because the Communists killed them all.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
People like Hitler, Mussolini or Lenin all supported the kind of things you are talking about because it lets them get power. Whether they believe in it or not is another question. It isn't as simple to describe fascism as far right for the reasons you have posted above, like you said it has some economically left wing policies. I would describe it as more extreme authoritarian centrism.
Yes, a good summary of Socialist ideology.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Everyone is part of this oppressive state that stamps on individual agency and liberty, everyone is just a cog in a massive meat grinder where the nation state is all that matters. There is a element of collectivism to it, which is an example of where left wing intentions/sentiments can lead to hell. When you look at what Bolshevism was and lead to in Russia it looks very similar to fascism.
No, not the Nation State, the ideological empire. Nation States opposed and stopped the ideologues, that is the lesson of history.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
But having left wing statist policies does not lead to fascism by default. Are we a fascist country because we have a national health service? Our welfare state was designed by a liberal called Beveridge, with regards to how individuals should interact with the state, liberalism and fascism are diametrically apposed to each other. Although this is another example of not just blindingly accepting labels people give themselves in power, these liberals often supported eugenic type policies that would remind one now of the Nazis.
Yes, liberalism is a much better idea than socialism.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
We have the concept of freedom of speech, the concept of individual liberty, rule of law etc. In the same that just because Pinochet enacted right wing neolibereral economic policies from what was essentially a fascist like platform does not mean Thatcher brought fascism to the UK. So Corbyn is not a fascist.
I said that Corbyn would like the points in the manifesto above...
Original post by Bornblue
Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Command economies are socialist. The only reason you believe they are not is because the left have engaged in a post soviet marketing exercise to decry anybody who doesn't fit their narrow palatable interpretation by conflating socialism as a socioeconomic ideology rather than primarily an economic ideology.
Just as Hayek and Pinochet were both capitalists, so are Hitler and Owen Jones albeit they believe very different variants.
Original post by newpersonage
These are normal Socialist actions - the Crimea was only empty of Tartars because the Communists killed them all.
Yes, a good summary of Socialist ideology.
It really isn't that simple. At the core it is worker control. I can easily show how a worker has sod all control in a police state.
No, not the Nation State, the ideological empire. Nation States opposed and stopped the ideologues, that is the lesson of history.
Yes, liberalism is a much better idea than socialism.
But liberals supported welfare. There is overlap in liberalism and socialism.There is a whole political ideology dedicated to just that, libertarian socialism. These kind of socialists were one of the peoples persecuted and crushed by fascist and Leninist regimes.
I said that Corbyn would like the points in the manifesto above...
Yes, a good summary of Socialist ideology.
It really isn't that simple. At the core it is worker control. I can easily show how a worker has sod all control in a police state.
No, not the Nation State, the ideological empire. Nation States opposed and stopped the ideologues, that is the lesson of history.
Yes, liberalism is a much better idea than socialism.
But liberals supported welfare. There is overlap in liberalism and socialism.There is a whole political ideology dedicated to just that, libertarian socialism. These kind of socialists were one of the peoples persecuted and crushed by fascist and Leninist regimes.
I said that Corbyn would like the points in the manifesto above...
You haven't understood anything I have said then. My main point was that that does not make him a fascist in and of itself.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by slade p
Yes far leftism is a threat to humanity along with atheist and feminism
I agree so much.
The notion that the Nazis were 'far-right' is ridiculous. In fact, the whole left-right scale is ridiculous, as it implies that something on one side cannot be on the other, which is untrue.
There is only authoritarianism and libertarianism. It's all about how much power the Government has. Which is too much in my opinion.
Hitler was a socialist yes.
Original post by Bornblue
Hitler and Mussolini were socialist ?! They were pretty much the exact opposite.
Hitler to much bad press. Whilst he got a few things wrong, if we had listened to his ideas on Eugenics, we may not have a country full of criminals and foreigners
Original post by Rakas21
Command economies are socialist. The only reason you believe they are not is because the left have engaged in a post soviet marketing exercise to decry anybody who doesn't fit their narrow palatable interpretation by conflating socialism as a socioeconomic ideology rather than primarily an economic ideology.
Just as Hayek and Pinochet were both capitalists, so are Hitler and Owen Jones albeit they believe very different variants.
Just as Hayek and Pinochet were both capitalists, so are Hitler and Owen Jones albeit they believe very different variants.
And the right have a habit of describing pretty much everything bad as socialism.
Comparing Owen Jones to hitler?
Haha.
Hitler banned unions - pretty much the opposite of socialism.
He killed and discriminated against millions - t- the oppsoite of socialism.
He went after the weak, the disabled and poor - the opposite of socialism.
To describe hitler as socialist is an absolute disgrace and a shameless measure to try and discredit the left and socialism.
Hitler was originally a national socialist but he drifted further economically right to gain power and ended up as a normal fascist. Mussolini was originally a socialist but he left and formed a fascist party with very few links to socialism.
Original post by Bornblue
And the right have a habit of describing pretty much everything bad as socialism.
Comparing Owen Jones to hitler?
Haha.
Hitler banned unions - pretty much the opposite of socialism.
He killed and discriminated against millions - t- the oppsoite of socialism.
He went after the weak, the disabled and poor - the opposite of socialism.
To describe hitler as socialist is an absolute disgrace and a shameless measure to try and discredit the left and socialism.
Comparing Owen Jones to hitler?
Haha.
Hitler banned unions - pretty much the opposite of socialism.
He killed and discriminated against millions - t- the oppsoite of socialism.
He went after the weak, the disabled and poor - the opposite of socialism.
To describe hitler as socialist is an absolute disgrace and a shameless measure to try and discredit the left and socialism.
I'm not comparing Hitler and Own Jones, I'm asserting that socialism is a far broader ideology than your led to believe.
The union thing was racist however there's nothing in Marx's writings that says eugenics is wrong (the reason Hitler went after the disabled) and for the poor he put everybody in the army ao I'm not sure how true your assertion is.
The main thing the right does wrong is conflate socialism and communism.
There's nothing that says socialism is free of discrimination, that's post Soviet relativism.
Original post by Rakas21
There's nothing that says socialism is free of discrimination, that's post Soviet relativism.
Very true, the left is extremly racist, only their hate and racism are directed against white people.
Of course Nazi Germany was socialist.
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
Private ownership was an illusion. Supposed owners of factories were told what to produce and in what quality.
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
Private ownership was an illusion. Supposed owners of factories were told what to produce and in what quality.
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