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New Guide to Posting - Discussion Thread

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Reply 40

DFranklin

Original post by SeanFM

I see that in the quick reply box:

•

If you click advanced then another bar will show up which gives you the option of numbered lists, bullet points etc.

Is that what you meant?

Yes, but these don't seem to appear in the actual post (interestingly, if you use the WYSIWYG editor, they work inside the editor, but still don't appear in the actual post).

(It looks like you have tried to create a single bullet point list in your post - but it doesn't actually appear, at least on my browser).

Edit: And now it has appeared. Weird. I did actually check that I couldn't see bullets in your post when I made the response just above).

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 41

imsoanonymous123

Original post by TeeEm

I personally have no problem with full solutions ...

Is there such a rule in MathsExchange or Physics Forums?

I agree... full solutions might sometimes not be good for learning maths but they do sometimes have a purpose as well, and are usually better than getting a tip and still not getting anywhere, then just giving up even after receiving the tip.

If you pick up your closest maths textbook they are almost bound to have fully worked examples, so I don't see why we condone them so much here.

The current one size fits all policy of 'no full solutions' is just flat out bad, there's no two ways about it

Reply 42

DFranklin

Original post by imsoanonymous123

The reason they are strongly discouraged is two-fold.

I think we can agree that as soon as a full solution is posted, you have destroyed any chance of the OP finding their own way to a solution. Of course, sometimes they're not going to find a solution without a massive amount of hand holding, and sometimes they're not going to see what an answer *should* look like unless someone posts a full solution.

What massively compounds this is the nature of a forum. You can have 5 people patiently pushing someone step-by-step towards a solution, but it only takes one person to post a full solution and all that effort is wasted. So if you don't discourage full solutions, in my experience, full solutions will end up dominating.

The current one size fits all policy of 'no full solutions' is just flat out bad, there's no two ways about it

In practice it's not a one size fits all policy. The guide is quite clear that there are situations where posting full solutions is reasonable.

If people want to discuss this, fine - I think the general position probably has softened from 5 years ago when the guide was updated. But I'm kind of comfortable with the what the current guide says about this myself.

Reply 43

DFranklin

Section on methods of posting maths (LaTeX etc). NOT COMPLETE YET

Ways to Post Maths Content on TSR

With all the funny symbols, layout, fractions etc., people often find it tricky to post mathematical content in such a way that people can understand it.

There are 3 common approaches:

1. Simple Text
That is, expressions like (x + 1) / (x + 2), or x^2 + 3x + 5 = 0.

This is a perfectly acceptable method if you don't need funny symbols (or are prepared to use extended character sets to put them in the text). Most mathematicians have no problem reading things like this, as long as the post isn't too long or too complex.

The key thing to be aware of is that many expressions that might be unambiguous when written by hand become ambiguous when typed as plain text in a forum.

When you are thinking about the fraction

\dfrac{x+1}{x+2}

, it's quite natural to type it as x + 1 / x + 2. But people reading it will be unclear whether you meant

x + \dfrac{1}{x} + 2

, or

\dfrac{x+1}{x}+2

, or

x + \dfrac{1}{x+2}

, or

\dfrac{x+1}{x+2}

. By strict precedence laws, it should mean

x + \dfrac{1}{x} + 2

, but experience tells us that is unlikely to be what was intended.

So when posting as simple text, it is important to use brackets to remove ambiguity. If you write the fraction as (x + 1) / (x + 2), it is completely clear what was meant.

If a post's content is too ambiguous, a moderator may quarantine it until you make it easier to understand.

2, Attachments
Now everyone has a mobile phone, it's the easiest thing in the world to take a photo of your question or working and upload it to the internet. Unfortunately, there are quite a few disadvantages of this approach:

•

Often the photo turns out rubbish. Focus issues, lighting, warped text because you shot from a funny angle or the you couldn't get the page flat on a big text book. And it's amazing how many attachments are posted upside down or sideways - which is quite a pain when viewing them via the forum.

•

Photos are hard to reply to on the forum. It's hard to view them at the same time as your typing your reply and if you want to quote parts of them it's impossible.

•

Because it's such an easy option, many will see someone posting questions like this as lazy, especially if all that's posted is post a photo of a problem sheet.

As far as the first issue goes, if the photograph is illegible or the wrong way up, a moderator may well ask you to repost with a fixed version of the photo, but other than that, it is completely within the rules to post mathematics using photos or attachments.

However it is discouraged, because of the other issues. In practice many forumites dislike replying to questions posted as attachments, and you will probably get better responses using one of the other two methods.

3. LaTeX

LaTeX is a system for typesetting mathematics using normal typed input plus commands. It is very powerful (it is used in professional mathematics typesetting) so using it you can produce equations like:

\displaystyle \int_{-\infty}^\infty \int_{-\infty}^\infty e^{-(x^2+y^2)/2} \, dx \,dy = \int_0^\infty \int_0^{2\pi} r e^{-r^2/2} \, d\theta \, dr

as well as more mundane equations like

\dfrac{x+1}{x+2}

.

It avoids all the issues with simple text and attachments: the equations are clear and unambiguous, they can be viewed at the same time as typing a response, they can be quoted in replies and edited.

For all these reasons, we believe posts made in LaTeX are the best of the 3 options.

That said, LaTeX has a learning curve, (though it is not as hard as people sometimes make out: to produce

x^2+ax+b = 0

only takes writing [noparse]

x^2+ax+b = 0

[/noparse]), and it can take a little time to get equations displaying how you want them.

So although use of LaTeX is recommened, it is not required. However, be aware that since LaTeX produces attractive, easy to read posts, your posts are more likely to be read and responded to if you use LaTeX.

There is a "short guide" to LaTeX here Link etc. not done yet
There is a more comprehensive guide here Link etc. not done yet

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 44

DFranklin

Original post by DFranklin

First suggestion: include the material in Mr M's 2 stickies and get rid of them. Also ensure guide is the "top" sticky in the forum.

Quoting myself, but it seems part of the purpose of the "ambiguous" sticky post is to have a thread mods can refer errant posters to. So we should probably not remove it, but I see no reason it needs to be a sticky.

I think the square roots one can be subsumed into a section "Thorny Topics" or similar, which should probably include other classics like 0.99999 =/= 1 and Cantor's Diagonalization Argument (although TSR seems to get comparatively few Cantor haters compared with other forums).

Reply 45

Notnek

Original post by DFranklin

When you are thinking about the fraction

\dfrac{x+1}{x+2}

, it's quite natural to type it as x + 1 / x + 2. But people reading it will be unclear whether you meant

x + \dfrac{1}{2} + 2

, or

\dfrac{x+1}{x}+2

, or

x + \dfrac{1}{x+2}

, or

\dfrac{x+1}{x+2}

. By strict precedence laws, it should mean

x + \dfrac{1}{2} + 2

, but experience tells us that is unlikely to be what was intended.

Do you mean

x+\frac{1}{x} + 2

instead of

x+\frac{1}{2} + 2

?

I would leave out the 'strict precedence laws' sentence to make your point more succinct. What do others think?

Everything else looks good after a first read through.

Reply 46

Zacken

Original post by DFranklin

I'm having trouble getting any text layout type formatting to work (lists, indenting, etc). Can anyhow help with a pointer to a how-to guide or examples?

I'm on a phone, so can't easily selective quote and my post will be rife with errors. The prospective guide seems great so far! Just a few things from me:

Move the things we suggest you do put in the title to the title paragraph. Right now it's [para for title] [para for something else] [things you should not put in your title:]

Lastly, perhaps it would be worth putting more emphasis on the full solutions. There's been many a time when I've told someone that full solutions are against guidelines and they retorted with the fact that they were just guidlines, so "frowned upon" isn't going to be any better. Perhaps something s little more forceful with the understanding that full solutions *can* be okay in certain cases.

Reply 47

DFranklin

Original post by notnek

Do you mean

x+\frac{1}{x} + 2

instead of

x+\frac{1}{2} + 2

?Yes, thanks.

I would leave out the 'strict precedence laws' sentence to make your point more succinct. What do others think?

Maybe - will wait for others to weigh in.

Reply 48

DFranklin

Original post by Zacken

Move the things we suggest you do put in the title to the title paragraph. Right now it's [para for title] [para for something else] [things you should not put in your title:]

OK, I've moved it. I shortened it considerably as well as otherwise it overshadowed the main point if it was in the same paragraph. I'm not totally happy with the wording, happy for someone else to have a go.

Lastly, perhaps it would be worth putting more emphasis on the full solutions. There's been many a time when I've told someone that full solutions are against guidelines and they retorted with the fact that they were just guidlines, so "frowned upon" isn't going to be any better. Perhaps something s little more forceful with the understanding that full solutions *can* be okay in certain cases.

To be honest, those two sections are currently almost exact copies of what's in the original guide. There's a full section on full solutions in the original guide that says explicitly that moderators can remove such posts. I think you're right some of that needs to go in the "How to Answer Questions" section, but since it seems we're also arguing a bit about the full solutions rule right now I'm inclined to wait a bit.

Reply 49

Zacken

What's the general feeling about full solutions?

Personally, I'm inclined to default to "no full solutions" unless the a specific thread would benefit from one. Such as, it's a thread of which the OP has already been led to the answer and you want to post another method, the OP is posting the markscheme/solution and asking you to explain it. The OP is still lost after several hints and so on. (Not an exhaustive list) - but for the majority of threads, I'd default to "give hints" where the magnitude of the hint depends on the level of confusion I perceive the OP as having.

Reply 50

DFranklin

Original post by Zacken

What's the general feeling about full solutions?

Personally, I'm inclined to default to "no full solutions" unless the a specific thread would benefit from one.

I'm fine with this, as long as I'm the one making the decsion about whether a thread would benefit :smile:

That's kind of tongue in cheek, but the problem is that the people who don't see a problem with full solutions obviously think the thread benefits from them posting them.

Such as, it's a thread of which the OP has already been led to the answer and you want to post another method, the OP is posting the markscheme/solution and asking you to explain it. The OP is still lost after several hints and so on. (Not an exhaustive list) - but for the majority of threads, I'd default to "give hints" where the magnitude of the hint depends on the level of confusion I perceive the OP as having.

I think most of us agree with this general approach.

The other exception I make is for (typically university level) proofs, where someone has managed to get to where their proof is valid, but it's quite a mess and I think it's important for them to see what it should really look like.

Reply 51

ghostwalker

Original post by DFranklin

In case it's any use, aside from threads, there are also "articles" which can be referenced, e.g. LaTex.

May be a useful home for some of the items what would otherwise require, or be in, a sticky.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 52

Mihael_Keehl

Is there a way to make images easier to upload on here, i.e. do it by print screen or drag and drop?

Reply 53

Kevin De Bruyne

The 'by strict precedence' bit does seem to be a bit superfluous but not a huge issue.

As for the stickies on ambiguity and square roots I think that they are useful in that if I need to refer them to someone I can find it very quickly. The thread for the various ways that integration has been spelt isn't stickied and when I've linked someone to it I've had to look up the thread (though that issue isn't as important as the other two).

I suppose that for the people who'll be doing the linking, you can just have it on your favourites bar. Or have those 3 threads somewhere in a widget like where the study help guidelines and guide to latex are?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 54

Zacken

Original post by SeanFM

As for the stickies on ambiguity and square roots I think that they are useful in that if I need to refer them to someone I can find it very quickly. The thread for the various ways that integration has been spelt isn't stickied and when I've linked someone to it I've had to look up the thread (though that issue isn't as important as the other two).

Perhaps amalgamate this into the Guide to Posting by in a different post, say post #2 and post#3 the you can link the person to that post directly?

Reply 55

Zacken

Original post by DFranklin

I'm fine with this, as long as I'm the one making the decsion about whether a thread would benefit :smile:

Wouldn't have it any other way, I agree with everything you've said.

Reply 56

Kevin De Bruyne

It may be a good idea for She-Ra or anyone else to post exactly what she posted in the current posting guide. Even now, I find people PMing me for help. :s-smilie:

Reply 57

ghostwalker

@DFranklin

I suggest including a link to the generic study help guidelines at the top:

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Study_Help_Guidelines

There is, off course, the danger that page may get moved, but I think it's unlikely.