The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

Original post by Robby2312
Women don't wear it of their own free will.They wear it because they are compelled within islam to do so.How exactly am I talking ******** about muslim countries? These countries do oppress women and gay people.In indonesia a women was recently caned for standing too close to her boyfriend.In saudi arabia women can't drive or go anywhere without a male guardian.In iran gay people are hanged from cranes.I'm not sure that there is much of a distinction between throwing gay people of roofs as isis do and hanging them.But of course nothing to do with islam right? What exactly have I said that is nonsense about islam? It is you who needs to get your facts right and stop denying the ugly face of islamic ideology.


Apologies if I've missed the context here, but plenty of women in the West do wear the hijab etc. of their own choice. The statistics are pretty clear on that, as should be intuitive. There are a couple of examples of this in this article.
Reply 361
Original post by Robby2312
Women don't wear it of their own free will.They wear it because they are compelled within islam to do so.How exactly am I talking ******** about muslim countries? These countries do oppress women and gay people.In indonesia a women was recently caned for standing too close to her boyfriend.In saudi arabia women can't drive or go anywhere without a male guardian.In iran gay people are hanged from cranes.I'm not sure that there is much of a distinction between throwing gay people of roofs as isis do and hanging them.But of course nothing to do with islam right? What exactly have I said that is nonsense about islam? It is you who needs to get your facts right and stop denying the ugly face of islamic ideology.


and now im saying those are all examples of extremism. and extremists are considered to be muslim by other muslims, just like we dont consider isis to be islamic
Original post by weaponx
and now im saying those are all examples of extremism. and extremists are considered to be muslim by other muslims, just like we dont consider isis to be islamic




We don't consider isis to be islamic because the media want to downplay the link between islamic terrorism and islam.And yes isis are islamic.They follow a literal violent interpretation of the quran rather than a more peaceful one.But that interpretation is still valid and its pretty much the same one the saudis use.You can't argue that any repressive muslim country is not muslim.Saidi arabia is pretty much the birthplace of islam.Thats like arguing the vatican aren't true catholics.They are true muslims.They just follow a more literal interpretation of the quran.Western muslims tend to cherry pick the bits they don't like.They ignore all the violent parts of the text and just focus on the peaceful parts.Doesn't mean their interpretation is more or less valid.
Reply 363
Original post by weaponx
and now im saying those are all examples of extremism. and extremists are considered to be muslim by other muslims, just like we dont consider isis to be islamic
In what way are ISIS "not Islamic"?

(Note: if you post the famous "letter from Imams", I will have to dig out my point-by-point refutation I posted some while back. Almost everything in that letter can be contradicted by some passage from the Quran or sunnah, or they are assertions that have no basis in the Quran or sunnah. It's almost as if the people who wrote that letter were deliberately misleading in order to present Islam in a better light. Either that, or they aren't as familiar with the Quran and sunnah as I am. Which do you think it is?)
Reply 364
Original post by Robby2312
We don't consider isis to be islamic because the media want to downplay the link between islamic terrorism and islam.And yes isis are islamic.They follow a literal violent interpretation of the quran rather than a more peaceful one.But that interpretation is still valid and its pretty much the same one the saudis use.You can't argue that any repressive muslim country is not muslim.Saidi arabia is pretty much the birthplace of islam.Thats like arguing the vatican aren't true catholics.They are true muslims.They just follow a more literal interpretation of the quran.Western muslims tend to cherry pick the bits they don't like.They ignore all the violent parts of the text and just focus on the peaceful parts.Doesn't mean their interpretation is more or less valid.


its not due to the media wanting to downplay the link between islam and terrorism, its the fact that more and more people have come to realise the truth that there is no link between the two through the voicing of celebrities, vids and social media.

all of the things that you misinterpret to claim that islam is violen and whatnot is silly, because you allways take the passages out of its context.
im refuting all of these things and still youre here tryna tell me. im a muslim, surely my word should be enough, butt people like you look high and low for unreasonable interpretations of quran and sunnah.

look at this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/muslims-using-sharia-law-against-isis-2014-10
Reply 365
Original post by weaponx
its not due to the media wanting to downplay the link between islam and terrorism, its the fact that more and more people have come to realise the truth that there is no link between the two through the voicing of celebrities, vids and social media.

all of the things that you misinterpret to claim that islam is violen and whatnot is silly, because you allways take the passages out of its context.
im refuting all of these things and still youre here tryna tell me. im a muslim, surely my word should be enough, butt people like you look high and low for unreasonable interpretations of quran and sunnah.

look at this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/muslims-using-sharia-law-against-isis-2014-10
And, as if by magic, that letter appears!
I did say it was mostly disingenuity, misinformation or mendacity, didn't I?
Let's start with point 1.
It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an— or part of a verse to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objectiv prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry - pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.

Essentially, all that is saying is that Islamic authorities cannot issue rulings unless they follow the appropriate procedures. Therefore, this is stating that if ISIS scholars/Imams issue any rulings, they are entirely valid if they have followed the appropriate procedures.
Also Ironic that they talk about "cherry-picking", as we shall see from their cherry-picking in some of the later points!

im a muslim, surely my word should be enough, butt people like you look high and low for unreasonable interpretations of quran and sunnah.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is also a Muslim, and an Arabic-speaking Islamic scholar to boot, so why is his word not enough? (Or even better than yours because of his qualifications!)

ISIS's interpretation only seems "unreasonable" to you because your morality is more developed than that of Muhammad and 7th century Arabia. They merely believe that when Allah says the Quran is perfect and unchangable, and Muhammad is the best example - they actually meant it.
However, you (like Christians have been doing for centuries) are simply saying that it's not really meant to be taken literally. Which is a good thing BTW! Unfortunately it doesn't change the fundamental tenets of Islamic ideology as laid down in the Quran and sunnah. And if you want to reject the claims and actions of the likes of ISIS, you also have to reject any claim that the Quran in perfect, unchangable, universal and timeless, or that Muhammad is the perfect example and role model.
Reply 366
Point 2
It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.

Essentially, this is a variation on point 1. It clearly implies that if the person in question is an Arabic speaker, and is qualified in Islamic studies (like al Baghdadi - ISIS has other scholars who support them BTW) then they can issue legal rulings.

Point 3
It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

This is a very vague and subjective point, almost meaningless.

Point 4
It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

Likewise, this doesn't actually say anything concrete. Also, ISIS scholars would claim that it is the Imams writing this letter who do not know the fundamental of Islam, that they follow a version that has been corrupted by modernisation and western kufr morality. So again, it is entirely subjective.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 367
Point 5
It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

Once again, an almost meaningless statement. What if "the realitiy of contemporary times" is that Islam is being corrupted and innovated by westernised scholars who are copying kufr ways? Moreover, does "the reality of contemporary times" overrule the content of the Quran and sunnah? Is Allah says something is permitted, and it is confirmed by Muhammad, is it now forbidden just because the decadent morality of desbelievers says it is? If you are claiming that the Quran is perfect, timeless and unchangable, and Muhammad the "best of creation", then you can hardly claim that they are also sunject to the whims of 21st century morality and society, can you? You have to make a choice - one or the other.
Reply 368
Point 6
It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

First, we must define what "innocent" means. As it stands, it is a purely subjective term that depends on the society and context in which it is used.
Is someone who commits adultery "innocent"?
What about an apostate? Is it forbidden to kill them in Islam?
How about someone who opposes or refuses to submit to Islam? Can they be killed? The Quran and Muhammad are quite clear that none of these are "innocent". It is not forbidden to kill them. Verse 5:32-33 explicitly states that those guilty of causing "mischief" or waging war on Allah may be killed.

So, while it may well be forbidden to "kill the innocent", in an Islamic sense (using a classical tafsir like Ibn Kathir as a guide), only those who submit to Islam and obey god's laws are considered to be "innocent".
Reply 369
Point 7
It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
That's a bit of a leap, isn't it? Why are journalists and aid workers classed as "diplomats"?
In fact, anyone working for the western media (and we all know how even UK Muslims accuse the media of condicting a "war on Islam") would surely be accused of "spreading mischief or corruption", which is punishable by death.
And if an aid worker is helping those opposed to Islam (ISIS) - which they usually are, because it is those ISIS are fighting who are usually in need of humanitarian aid - then they are also liable to be executed. In fact, Muhammad executed an entire tribe simply because he suspected them of providing aid to his enemies (Banu Qurayza).

Also, this is another of the claims that I can find no scriptural reference for.
Reply 370
Original post by QE2
Point 7
It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
That's a bit of a leap, isn't it? Why are journalists and aid workers classed as "diplomats"?
In fact, anyone working for the western media (and we all know how even UK Muslims accuse the media of condicting a "war on Islam":wink: would surely be accused of "spreading mischief or corruption", which is punishable by death.
And if an aid worker is helping those opposed to Islam (ISIS) - which they usually are, because it is those ISIS are fighting who are usually in need of humanitarian aid - then they are also liable to be executed. In fact, Muhammad executed an entire tribe simply because he suspected them of providing aid to his enemies (Banu Qurayza).

Also, this is another of the claims that I can find no scriptural reference for.



Here are 10 fundamental edicts the group claims ISIS has violated, as well as the letter itself:
1) It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.


2) It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.


3) It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.


4) It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.


5) It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.


6) It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat Christians or any "People of the Scripture."


7) Jihad in Islam is a purely defensive struggle. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose, and the right rules of conduct.


8) It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.


9) Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.


10) It is forbidden in Islam to declare a Caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

You can read the full "Letter to Baghdadi" here:
Reply 371
Original post by weaponx
Here are 10 fundamental edicts the group claims ISIS has violated, as well as the letter itself:
1) It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.


2) It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.


3) It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.


4) It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.


5) It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.


6) It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat Christians or any "People of the Scripture."


7) Jihad in Islam is a purely defensive struggle. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose, and the right rules of conduct.


8) It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.


9) Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.


10) It is forbidden in Islam to declare a Caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

You can read the full "Letter to Baghdadi" here:
Yeah, sorry. I got a bit sidetracked with what's going on elsewhere. I will get back on this one soon.

Although I will point out that I already dealt with your Point 8 on this list in my previous post about your first list (which you replied to, to post your new list!). You can't simply respond by repeating your claim. You need to actually deal with my argument. If you don't, we must assume that you conceed the point.

That also applies to all 7 of my responses so far.
You posted the letter as proof that ISIS are not Islamic.
I have posted rebuttals of those points.
You are now obliged to respond to my rebuttals of concede the points, and by implication concede that ISIS are in fact Islamic. That's how this debate malarkey works.

So, over to you...

Latest

Trending

Trending