Is it safe to be openly gender critical in university
I have taken a year out before I go to university next year. I'm openly-gender critical and I have seen stories of universities not supporting gender-critical students. The main story that comes to mind is Lisa Keo @abertay university. Other high profile cases are Jo Pheonix and Kathleene Stock resignation.
I think people have every right to have opposing opinions but to say that an opinion is dangerous to one's wellbeing and said person needs to potentially be removed is not fair and inclusive.
I think people have every right to have opposing opinions but to say that an opinion is dangerous to one's wellbeing and said person needs to potentially be removed is not fair and inclusive.
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Original post by Sha-ney-ney
I have taken a year out before I go to university next year. I'm openly-gender critical and I have seen stories of universities not supporting gender-critical students. The main story that comes to mind is Lisa Keo @abertay university. Other high profile cases are Jo Pheonix and Kathleene Stock resignation.
I think people have every right to have opposing opinions but to say that an opinion is dangerous to one's wellbeing and said person needs to potentially be removed is not fair and inclusive.
I think people have every right to have opposing opinions but to say that an opinion is dangerous to one's wellbeing and said person needs to potentially be removed is not fair and inclusive.
Why would a university support a student spreading false, potentially hateful, information? maybe re-evaluate your views.
Original post by Bananasforbio
Why would a university support a student spreading false, potentially hateful, information? maybe re-evaluate your views.
Interesting take, thanks for your reply. I never knew it was false to believe in only two genders as it's a recognisable philosophical belief.
Define "gender critical".
In what circumstances would you be "gender critical"? Depending on your degree / courses, this may never come up.
In what circumstances would you be "gender critical"? Depending on your degree / courses, this may never come up.
A man and woman were the only two constructs I was brought up with and what I have gone through my life with, I've been happy and content with that. I am a straight man from birth and see no reason for all the current waffle. It used to be that people would generally keep their private lives and issues private but increasingly it seems we are going more like the US in everyone spouting off about it all. I don't think that bis at all useful for anyone it's kind of like having pow wow for the sake of it. I can't see the point in having pointless arguements just to fall out with each other and start shouting at each other. Better for everyone just to put that all quietly to one side and get on with what they are there for, their course.
To me it falls into the category of those topics not to talk about like Politics & Religion unless you are partaking ONLY for that purpose. No one ever really changes their mind anyway we all stick to what we feel is right. Only time to possibly punt out your views is if someone is imposing theirs upon you in my view as you wish.
To me it falls into the category of those topics not to talk about like Politics & Religion unless you are partaking ONLY for that purpose. No one ever really changes their mind anyway we all stick to what we feel is right. Only time to possibly punt out your views is if someone is imposing theirs upon you in my view as you wish.
Safe? Sure.
Likely to be disliked and for people to not want anything to do with you, but that's something different.
Likely to be disliked and for people to not want anything to do with you, but that's something different.
sorry, in what circumstance would you need to be openly gender critical? like you realise this subject never ever comes up in daily conversation 
. you'd have to shoehorn it in and if you shoehorn it into the conversation most people will look at you sideways cuz why are you bringing it up outta nowhere 
are you worried if you live in halls and there's a non-binary person living there you won't be able to tell them to their face that there's only two genders? like i'm trying to envision your concern here cuz i'm guessing you're not studying a subject that is gender related as that for you would be a big fat waste of £27k.
. you'd have to shoehorn it in and if you shoehorn it into the conversation most people will look at you sideways cuz why are you bringing it up outta nowhere are you worried if you live in halls and there's a non-binary person living there you won't be able to tell them to their face that there's only two genders? like i'm trying to envision your concern here cuz i'm guessing you're not studying a subject that is gender related as that for you would be a big fat waste of £27k.
Gender Critical means that you do not believe in the nebulous concept of gender identity or at least you think it’s possibility is less important that biological sex. The belief in a duality between body and mind is akin to a religious belief, Christ ascended into heaven, our mind is independent of our body.
It would be illegal for a Christian to compel participation in their religion.
‘My name is Alice, my pronouns ze/zer, can I ask what your pronouns are?’
Female and male toilets have been replaced with gender neutral toilets, I believe that there is a fundamental biological difference which renders men a risk to women, this makes me uncomfortable.
I can no longer talk about safeguarding in a way that is relevant to my subject without being accused of being bigoted.
Will research still be conducted on female bodies, now we aren’t allowed to talk about what a female body is?
I am being told that sex is a bimodel spectrum when this does not best fit the evidence.
Am I going to receive support from the university if I have been victimised by someone who doesn’t identify with their sex?
My dear friend who is going through a difficult time has started a medical transition, I am concerned for her health, HRT is potent and the long term implications aren’t well researched.
But don’t worry, non of these hypothetical problems would be a problem, suck it up. And yes gender ideology is touching everything.
It would be illegal for a Christian to compel participation in their religion.
‘My name is Alice, my pronouns ze/zer, can I ask what your pronouns are?’
Female and male toilets have been replaced with gender neutral toilets, I believe that there is a fundamental biological difference which renders men a risk to women, this makes me uncomfortable.
I can no longer talk about safeguarding in a way that is relevant to my subject without being accused of being bigoted.
Will research still be conducted on female bodies, now we aren’t allowed to talk about what a female body is?
I am being told that sex is a bimodel spectrum when this does not best fit the evidence.
Am I going to receive support from the university if I have been victimised by someone who doesn’t identify with their sex?
My dear friend who is going through a difficult time has started a medical transition, I am concerned for her health, HRT is potent and the long term implications aren’t well researched.
But don’t worry, non of these hypothetical problems would be a problem, suck it up. And yes gender ideology is touching everything.
Original post by Cancelled Alice
‘My name is Alice, my pronouns ze/zer, can I ask what your pronouns are?’ My pronouns are he, she, it and they which I try to use appropriately. I would like to call you Alice
Female and male toilets have been replaced with gender neutral toilets, I believe that there is a fundamental biological difference which renders men a risk to women, this makes me uncomfortable.Not going to the loo when I need to makes me uncomfortable
I can no longer talk about safeguarding in a way that is relevant to my subject without being accused of being bigoted.But your subject is geology. You deal with rocks
Will research still be conducted on female bodies, now we aren’t allowed to talk about what a female body is?Particularly after midnight on Fridays
I am being told that sex is a bimodel spectrum when this does not best fit the evidence.I am being told the bar's open
Am I going to receive support from the university if I have been victimised by someone who doesn’t identify with their sex?I wouldn't have thought so. Universities have been failing to support students for generations. Why do you think they are going to stop now?
My dear friend who is going through a difficult time has started a medical transition, I am concerned for her health, HRT is potent and the long term implications aren’t well researched.That is thoughtful of you
‘My name is Alice, my pronouns ze/zer, can I ask what your pronouns are?’ My pronouns are he, she, it and they which I try to use appropriately. I would like to call you Alice
Female and male toilets have been replaced with gender neutral toilets, I believe that there is a fundamental biological difference which renders men a risk to women, this makes me uncomfortable.Not going to the loo when I need to makes me uncomfortable
I can no longer talk about safeguarding in a way that is relevant to my subject without being accused of being bigoted.But your subject is geology. You deal with rocks
Will research still be conducted on female bodies, now we aren’t allowed to talk about what a female body is?Particularly after midnight on Fridays
I am being told that sex is a bimodel spectrum when this does not best fit the evidence.I am being told the bar's open
Am I going to receive support from the university if I have been victimised by someone who doesn’t identify with their sex?I wouldn't have thought so. Universities have been failing to support students for generations. Why do you think they are going to stop now?
My dear friend who is going through a difficult time has started a medical transition, I am concerned for her health, HRT is potent and the long term implications aren’t well researched.That is thoughtful of you
Regards
Original post by nulli tertius
Regards
It is used to identify objects, I am never going to refer to another human being as it. Hell I thought that 5 years ago it was widely recognised to be one of the most disrespectful things you could call a transgenderperson.
Unfortunately toileting isn’t the only thing that some men get up to in the toilet. Sex segregated toilets protect women.
And what about the other subjects where biological sex is relevant?
Maybe you should learn to hide your misogyny a little more effective. Women’s bodies aren’t just different in the bedroom.
Go on then.
There are cases of institutions failing to protect women most likely because they are afraid of transphobia accusations.
Original post by Cancelled Alice
It is used to identify objects, "It" unlike him, her, and them is also used to identify subjects.I am never going to refer to another human being as it. Hell I thought that 5 years ago it was widely recognised to be one of the most disrespectful things you could call a transgenderperson. But it isn't a disrespectful thing to call a table
Unfortunately toileting isn’t the only thing that some men get up to in the toilet. Sex segregated toilets protect women.
Yet we don't find the need for them on trains, in aircraft or, I suspect, in Jeffrey Epstein's many homes
There are cases of institutions failing to protect women most likely because they are afraid of transphobia accusations.
Unfortunately toileting isn’t the only thing that some men get up to in the toilet. Sex segregated toilets protect women.
Yet we don't find the need for them on trains, in aircraft or, I suspect, in Jeffrey Epstein's many homes
There are cases of institutions failing to protect women most likely because they are afraid of transphobia accusations.
There are many many, many more through ambivalence and incompetance.
Regards
Original post by nulli tertius
There are many many, many more through ambivalence and incompetance.
Regards
Regards
Obviously you can’t be disrespectful to a table. The only reason why it’s appropriate to refer to a table as it is because it is an object.
Planes and trains have self contained toilets because of space constraints. Of course it would be silly to designate one toilet as being for the ladies and the other as being for the gents when it’s one at a time.
Yeah sure, unless you are a member of a politically special demographic.
Original post by Sha-ney-ney
I have taken a year out before I go to university next year. I'm openly-gender critical and I have seen stories of universities not supporting gender-critical students.
If you re-write this and instead say "I'm openly racist and believe white people to be the superior race," how do you think people would regard you?
Someone who is trans going about their own business, regardless of what you believe, is doing you no harm whatsoever. Yet you feel it is your right to criticise. I take it you would be open to criticism about everything you say or do, how you dress, who you talk to etc etc?
Original post by Joleee
sorry, in what circumstance would you need to be openly gender critical? like you realise this subject never ever comes up in daily conversation . you'd have to shoehorn it in and if you shoehorn it into the conversation most people will look at you sideways cuz why are you bringing it up outta nowhere
are you worried if you live in halls and there's a non-binary person living there you won't be able to tell them to their face that there's only two genders? like i'm trying to envision your concern here cuz i'm guessing you're not studying a subject that is gender related as that for you would be a big fat waste of £27k.
. you'd have to shoehorn it in and if you shoehorn it into the conversation most people will look at you sideways cuz why are you bringing it up outta nowhere are you worried if you live in halls and there's a non-binary person living there you won't be able to tell them to their face that there's only two genders? like i'm trying to envision your concern here cuz i'm guessing you're not studying a subject that is gender related as that for you would be a big fat waste of £27k.
I think it's a topic that can come up in discussion pretty easily at university, even if you aren't specifically studying a "gender related subject". There are plenty of others that this issue could plausibly be relevant to - for example medicine, philosophy, literature, law, sociology, anthropology, psychology, politics... anything that involves people really.
It doesn't necessarily even need to be a part of the syllabus itself. For a heated discussion to arise, it only takes (for example) one person to raise their hand in class and vehemently object to something that the professor has said or taught because it happens to be based on a traditional model of sex and gender. I don't think that's such a far fetched scenario given that (1) universities contain thousands of people with extremely diverse sets of views, and (2) a much wider range of views on sex and gender have been arising in recent years - including some very strongly held ones which people can be very sensitive about. I mean there has even been an article in the news recently in which a person felt the need to complain to the employers of a train manager because he used the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" in an announcement. If it can happen there then I don't see why it can't happen at a university - in fact I'd say it's many orders of magnitude more likely to.
This is also true outside of the lectures of your degree subject as well. Universities have their "Oxford Unions" or equivalents. You get your Jordan Petersons and Ben Shapiros of the world (and their opponents) giving talks at universities all the time. A great deal of activism, including trans-activism begins at university. And given that university is an arena in which people are still in the process of developing their world views and their skills to think critically and freely, that just fans the flames even further because it means that anything and everything is up for debate. People are going to be airing their views and challenging each other's views quite regularly, especially on controversial issues.
Original post by hotpud
If you re-write this and instead say "I'm openly racist and believe white people to be the superior race," how do you think people would regard you?
Someone who is trans going about their own business, regardless of what you believe, is doing you no harm whatsoever. Yet you feel it is your right to criticise. I take it you would be open to criticism about everything you say or do, how you dress, who you talk to etc etc?
Someone who is trans going about their own business, regardless of what you believe, is doing you no harm whatsoever. Yet you feel it is your right to criticise. I take it you would be open to criticism about everything you say or do, how you dress, who you talk to etc etc?
On your first point it interesting that you talk about sports and racism with Muslim Pakistan Yorkshire cricketer and failed to notices or worst not care about the articles about his disgusting anti semitic Facebook posts.
I give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read or see the post on the student forum. But others might believe that you only care when white show forms of prejudice. That you make excuses or choose to ignore when other ethic groups and religions do the same.
It a form of prejudice that you don't view prejudice from non white people seriously. I take every from of prejudice seriously whoever it comes from.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
I think it's a topic that can come up in discussion pretty easily at university, even if you aren't specifically studying a "gender related subject". There are plenty of others that this issue could plausibly be relevant to - for example medicine, philosophy, literature, law, sociology, anthropology, psychology, politics... anything that involves people really.
It doesn't necessarily even need to be a part of the syllabus itself. For a heated discussion to arise, it only takes (for example) one person to raise their hand in class and vehemently object to something that the professor has said or taught because it happens to be based on a traditional model of sex and gender. I don't think that's such a far fetched scenario given that (1) universities contain thousands of people with extremely diverse sets of views, and (2) a much wider range of views on sex and gender have been arising in recent years - including some very strongly held ones which people can be very sensitive about. I mean there has even been an article in the news recently in which a person felt the need to complain to the employers of a train manager because he used the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" in an announcement. If it can happen there then I don't see why it can't happen at a university - in fact I'd say it's many orders of magnitude more likely to.
This is also true outside of the lectures of your degree subject as well. Universities have their "Oxford Unions" or equivalents. You get your Jordan Petersons and Ben Shapiros of the world (and their opponents) giving talks at universities all the time. A great deal of activism, including trans-activism begins at university. And given that university is an arena in which people are still in the process of developing their world views and their skills to think critically and freely, that just fans the flames even further because it means that anything and everything is up for debate. People are going to be airing their views and challenging each other's views quite regularly, especially on controversial issues.
It doesn't necessarily even need to be a part of the syllabus itself. For a heated discussion to arise, it only takes (for example) one person to raise their hand in class and vehemently object to something that the professor has said or taught because it happens to be based on a traditional model of sex and gender. I don't think that's such a far fetched scenario given that (1) universities contain thousands of people with extremely diverse sets of views, and (2) a much wider range of views on sex and gender have been arising in recent years - including some very strongly held ones which people can be very sensitive about. I mean there has even been an article in the news recently in which a person felt the need to complain to the employers of a train manager because he used the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" in an announcement. If it can happen there then I don't see why it can't happen at a university - in fact I'd say it's many orders of magnitude more likely to.
This is also true outside of the lectures of your degree subject as well. Universities have their "Oxford Unions" or equivalents. You get your Jordan Petersons and Ben Shapiros of the world (and their opponents) giving talks at universities all the time. A great deal of activism, including trans-activism begins at university. And given that university is an arena in which people are still in the process of developing their world views and their skills to think critically and freely, that just fans the flames even further because it means that anything and everything is up for debate. People are going to be airing their views and challenging each other's views quite regularly, especially on controversial issues.
you are free to think your opinion on gender is something that comes up in daily conversation but i can certainly verify it does not. the vast majority of people don't think about non-binary people in their daily lives and the vast majority don't study a subject where gender comes up, not even those subjects you have mentioned above. might i guess you are not a university student?
i study law and have taken a few politics modules. i also have lots of friends and arguably the most popular person in my programme (not bragging, just saying). i also work part time at an organisation with over 100 employee at my office and have lived in halls and lived with 30 different flatmates. the subject of non-binary people has never ever ever come up, not even once. like i have no idea what my friends or housemates or colleagues opinions are on it
tbh i think you're like the OP who has envisioned a fantasyland perhaps based on your own interest in the subject and maybe D&CA's disproportionate interest in it. classes that teach on gender and third genders specifically are optional modules fyi; you don't learn about it generally and no one would select to study one if they did not agree with the academic teachings of gender. why would they?
moreover, the lecturer is literally teaching you academic literature and only what you need to know for the exam or possibly direct you with the assignment. you envision someone raising their hand in objection but that person would look like a moron because you cannot object to what is written and the lecturer is not giving you their personal opinion on what's written. it would be the equivalent to my lecturer saying for a fact 'Thomas Hobbes thought XYZ' and i raise my hand and say 'Nah, he didn't think that
'. Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro do not give talks about non-binary people at universities nor are they activists against trans people; i know cuz i have listened to 1.2 million of their podcasts. you don't go to university tho so you don't know the atmosphere and are making assumptions based on something you have seen on YouTube.
Original post by Joleee
you are free to think your opinion on gender is something that comes up in daily conversation but i can certainly verify it does not. the vast majority of people don't think about non-binary people in their daily lives and the vast majority don't study a subject where gender comes up, not even those subjects you have mentioned above. might i guess you are not a university student?
i study law and have taken a few politics modules. i also have lots of friends and arguably the most popular person in my programme (not bragging, just saying). i also work part time at an organisation with over 100 employee at my office and have lived in halls and lived with 30 different flatmates. the subject of non-binary people has never ever ever come up, not even once. like i have no idea what my friends or housemates or colleagues opinions are on it tbh i think you're like the OP who has envisioned a fantasyland perhaps based on your own interest in the subject and maybe D&CA's disproportionate interest in it.
classes that teach on gender and third genders specifically are optional modules fyi; you don't learn about it generally and no one would select to study one if they did not agree with the academic teachings of gender. why would they?
moreover, the lecturer is literally teaching you academic literature and only what you need to know for the exam or possibly direct you with the assignment. you envision someone raising their hand in objection but that person would look like a moron because you cannot object to what is written and the lecturer is not giving you their personal opinion on what's written. it would be the equivalent to my lecturer saying for a fact 'Thomas Hobbes thought XYZ' and i raise my hand and say 'Nah, he didn't think that'.
i study law and have taken a few politics modules. i also have lots of friends and arguably the most popular person in my programme (not bragging, just saying). i also work part time at an organisation with over 100 employee at my office and have lived in halls and lived with 30 different flatmates. the subject of non-binary people has never ever ever come up, not even once. like i have no idea what my friends or housemates or colleagues opinions are on it
tbh i think you're like the OP who has envisioned a fantasyland perhaps based on your own interest in the subject and maybe D&CA's disproportionate interest in it. classes that teach on gender and third genders specifically are optional modules fyi; you don't learn about it generally and no one would select to study one if they did not agree with the academic teachings of gender. why would they?
moreover, the lecturer is literally teaching you academic literature and only what you need to know for the exam or possibly direct you with the assignment. you envision someone raising their hand in objection but that person would look like a moron because you cannot object to what is written and the lecturer is not giving you their personal opinion on what's written. it would be the equivalent to my lecturer saying for a fact 'Thomas Hobbes thought XYZ' and i raise my hand and say 'Nah, he didn't think that
'.Note the point I made: “It doesn’t necessarily even need to be a part of the syllabus itself”. I’m not talking about situations where the professor decides to teach about gender, or the subject contains modules specifically on that.
Of course a person raising their hand and objecting to something the professor said would look like a moron; but morons do in fact exist everywhere. I already gave you the example of one such moron who felt the need to object to an announcement on a train which began with “ladies and gentlemen”. I’m sure there was no lecture on gender going on there. Whilst studying medicine you could easily get such a moron in your obstetrics and gynaecology class who decides to pipe up with “It’s offensive to use the word ‘mother’, we should say ‘birthing parent’ in this day and age because men can give birth too”. This is just one possible example. I'm not saying it's a highly likely thing to happen but this sort of thing does happen in public society from time to time.
Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro do not give talks about non-binary people at universities nor are they activists against trans people; i know cuz i have listened to 1.2 million of their podcasts. you don't go to university tho so you don't know the atmosphere and are making assumptions based on something you have seen on YouTube.
I don't claim that they are activists against trans-people. They are merely people with traditional views on sex and gender, who regularly give talks at universities, and who often receive opposition from university students over those views.
I have been to university, and I know first hand that guest speakers give talks at universities all the time, on a range of issues. I also know first hand that debating societies exist and universities in which topical and often controversial issues are discussed. This means that discussions that you might be involved in at university are not solely limited to the subject you happen to be studying. I studied mathematics and was regularly involved in debates on religion, politics and a whole lot of things unrelated to mathematics.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
I already gave you the example of one such moron who felt the need to object to an announcement on a train which began with “ladies and gentlemen”. I’m sure there was no lecture on gender going on there.
There's a lot of people out there who like playing the victim and will always find something to be offended about.
I was brought up with taught that there are two genders, man and woman. If you feel differently and want to call yourself they/them absolutely fine, but don't expect me to do it as that's not how I understand it. Personally I think a lot of this stuff just creates pointless arguments and tension. Does it really matter if someone says "he" instead of "they", I mean will it really cause you any harm? They probably don't mean any harm by it but if you keep banging on about it and virtue signalling, they probably will end up resenting you and then society becomes even more divided than ever.
In an ideal world it wouldn't be, because misogyny and white supremacy wouldn't be (and "Gender critical" views - as if y'all were even remotely critical of gender - are hella misogynistic and founded very heavily on eurocentric and consequently white-centric views of womanhood), but unfortunately academia isn't exactly big on dealing with discriminatory views unless you're actively harassing people (and even then, depending on how senior you are you can often get away with it). So, keep it to yourself & you won't face any issues.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
In an ideal world it wouldn't be, because misogyny and white supremacy wouldn't be (and "Gender critical" views - as if y'all were even remotely critical of gender - are hella misogynistic and founded very heavily on eurocentric and consequently white-centric views of womanhood), but unfortunately academia isn't exactly big on dealing with discriminatory views unless you're actively harassing people (and even then, depending on how senior you are you can often get away with it). So, keep it to yourself & you won't face any issues.
How would you feel if the same principle applied to views you do agree with though? What's your views on Black Lives Matter or Pride parades? Do you think they should "keep their opinions to themselves" instead of standing up for the causes they believe in?
A world dominated by the intolerant left would be extremely dull as we'd only be allowed to disagree on pizza toppings
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