The Student Room Group

Is it safe to be openly gender critical in university

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Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
In an ideal world it wouldn't be, because misogyny and white supremacy wouldn't be (and "Gender critical" views - as if y'all were even remotely critical of gender - are hella misogynistic and founded very heavily on eurocentric and consequently white-centric views of womanhood), but unfortunately academia isn't exactly big on dealing with discriminatory views unless you're actively harassing people (and even then, depending on how senior you are you can often get away with it). So, keep it to yourself & you won't face any issues.

Wow, what are you saying? Non white people are too dim to understand basic biology? And you wanna talk about racism…

Of course we can’t and we shouldn’t police people’s thoughts, including those that happen to be unfavourable.
Original post by Megacent
There's a lot of people out there who like playing the victim and will always find something to be offended about.

I was brought up with taught that there are two genders, man and woman. If you feel differently and want to call yourself they/them absolutely fine, but don't expect me to do it as that's not how I understand it. Personally I think a lot of this stuff just creates pointless arguments and tension. Does it really matter if someone says "he" instead of "they", I mean will it really cause you any harm?


Will it really cause them any harm to use "they" instead of "he"?

They probably don't mean any harm by it but if you keep banging on about it and virtue signalling, they probably will end up resenting you and then society becomes even more divided than ever.


Oh, the irony.

Also, most trans people don't really care much if you say the wrong pronoun as an honest mistake. They'll point it out, you just say something like "ah sorry, my bad", the same way you might if you accidentally got someone's name wrong, and you move on. If you keep doing it to the point that it's clearly deliberate, then they're going to reasonably conclude that you do in fact mean harm (or at least don't care whether you cause any).
Reply 22
Original post by Bananasforbio
Why would a university support a student spreading false, potentially hateful, information? maybe re-evaluate your views.

This did amuse me a fair bit, do you consider any fact you disagree with 'false' or 'potentially harmful', despite the manifest fact simply saying, as the OP infers, that there are but 2 genders is not 'hateful' and cannot be construed by any vaguely rationale person as such.
Original post by anarchism101
Will it really cause them any harm to use "they" instead of "he"?

I think that's a bit like a Christian saying to an atheist "will it really do you any harm to say grace before eating dinner near me?"

No actual "harm" is done to either person either way. But it's not a question of harm, it's a question of mutual respect for each other's views and perspectives. Whereas pressurising only one person to pay lip-service to the views of the other is only one-sided respect, and also promotes dishonesty.
Original post by anarchism101
If you keep doing it to the point that it's clearly deliberate, then they're going to reasonably conclude that you do in fact mean harm (or at least don't care whether you cause any).


Why would you think that they meant you any harm though? I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to draw at all. As the poster above said, imagine a situation where you are a devout Christian that says prayers before each meal and that I am a firm atheist. If you invite me to lunch I'll probably be polite and offer to stay silent while you do your prayer, but I'm not going to take part in it myself and contradict my own beliefs just to please you. I don't think it would be fair of you to expect me to recite scripture or give thanks to a deity that I don't believe in just because you do. Would you "reasonably conclude" that I mean you harm because of that?

It feels like you're basically saying we all need to agree with your views on gender and pronouns otherwise we're bad people who hate you. But I can assure you I don't hate you or intend any harm at all. I grew up being taught that there are just two genders, man and woman. So for me the correct pronouns are "he" for a man and "she" for a woman. By asking me to refer to you in a different way, you're effectively asking me to go against my beliefs just to keep you happy. Like the religion example above, I don't think that's fair of you. It's like you want me to accept your views while not accepting mine.
(edited 2 years ago)
Reply 25
I wouldn't recommend debating about it cause it's a dogmatic philosophy not based on facts to begin with.

That being said it's no fun to live life on eggshells.
Original post by Megacent
How would you feel if the same principle applied to views you do agree with though? What's your views on Black Lives Matter or Pride parades? Do you think they should "keep their opinions to themselves" instead of standing up for the causes they believe in?

A world dominated by the intolerant left would be extremely dull as we'd only be allowed to disagree on pizza toppings

Yea no, i assume you're aware of the paradox of tolerance? BLM and Pride parades aren't causes dedicated to trying to strip people of their human rights, while the foundation of "gender critical" views right back to the writings of Janice Raymond (given her and Daly were two major theorists in anti-trans 'feminism') are inherently exterminationist towards trans people (note that in "the transsexual empire" by Raymond she actively states that trans people should be "morally mandated out of existence"). If your views are 'this group of people shouldn't be allowed to exist' then you should be silent and your views should not be tolerated in society because your views would cause material harm to people if enacted.
You'd probably be safe, but not from me. Pray we aren't going to the same uni, otherwise you'll catch these hands
Original post by Cancelled Alice
Wow, what are you saying? Non white people are too dim to understand basic biology? And you wanna talk about racism…

Of course we can’t and we shouldn’t police people’s thoughts, including those that happen to be unfavourable.

Obviously not what I'm saying, and anti-trans views are not even remotely based in biology. When I say that 'gender critical' views are white supremacist I'm talking two-fold. One, it erases the existence of third, fourth, fifth etc genders in indigenous cultures. The concept of only two genders is very much a european and christian view - in Polynesian cultures for instance we have the fa'afafine, fakaleiti and the mahu, a number of north american tribes have two-spirit people, the aboriginals in Australia had sistergirls and brotherboys, the Bugi people of Indonesia have bsissu, in India you have the Hijra, Bakla in the Philippines. Two, the way in which gender is policed by 'gender critical' people, in addition to mostly harassing butch lesbians (so I should I guess add lesbophobia to the types of bigotry that it encompasses), most of the traits that they look at as being feminine are based on white beauty standards and are built off misogynoir - it's why the targets of "she's actually a man" conspiracies often target black women like the Williams sisters and Michelle Obama.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Obviously not what I'm saying, and anti-trans views are not even remotely based in biology. When I say that 'gender critical' views are white supremacist I'm talking two-fold. One, it erases the existence of third, fourth, fifth etc genders in indigenous cultures. The concept of only two genders is very much a european and christian view - in Polynesian cultures for instance we have the fa'afafine, fakaleiti and the mahu, a number of north american tribes have two-spirit people, the aboriginals in Australia had sistergirls and brotherboys, the Bugi people of Indonesia have bsissu, in India you have the Hijra, Bakla in the Philippines. Two, the way in which gender is policed by 'gender critical' people, in addition to mostly harassing butch lesbians (so I should I guess add lesbophobia to the types of bigotry that it encompasses), most of the traits that they look at as being feminine are based on white beauty standards and are built off misogynoir - it's why the targets of "she's actually a man" conspiracies often target black women like the Williams sisters and Michelle Obama.

Biology is neither pro nor anti trans is the sense that it strives to be objective. Biology shows us that there is a sex binary, it is also unable to prove the existence of a gendered soul. I am not really sure what anti-trans biology would look like, perhaps ideology but I’ll let you decide for yourself.

The trait that most gender critical feminist would view as being feminine is not having (an active) SRY gene.
GC feminist have different ideas about what should be done to make society a better place to be female, but frequently it’s something along the lines of we should move to abolish or minimise gender.

Third genders have often been a mechanism for keeping the homophobes happy. In other incidences third gender roles are a product of religious beliefs, I am not someone who seeks to prevent people from practicing their religious beliefs but equally religion should not be force on to others- keep the preaching in church.
Original post by Cancelled Alice
Biology is neither pro nor anti trans is the sense that it strives to be objective. Biology shows us that there is a sex binary, it is also unable to prove the existence of a gendered soul. I am not really sure what anti-trans biology would look like, perhaps ideology but I’ll let you decide for yourself.

The trait that most gender critical feminist would view as being feminine is not having (an active) SRY gene.
GC feminist have different ideas about what should be done to make society a better place to be female, but frequently it’s something along the lines of we should move to abolish or minimise gender.

Third genders have often been a mechanism for keeping the homophobes happy. In other incidences third gender roles are a product of religious beliefs, I am not someone who seeks to prevent people from practicing their religious beliefs but equally religion should not be force on to others- keep the preaching in church.

All false.

Biology does not show us a sex binary, the sex binary is socially constructed in that it attempts to reduce a number of characteristics which do not always line up with each other into a single binary, and we see that with how the goalposts laid out by anti-trans activists move from chromosomes to gametes to "how your body is organised" as previous definitions are shown to exclude people who, for instance are intersex or are infertile.

Gender Critical "feminists" (they're not feminists, they're extreme misogynists who define women by reproductive capacity above all and treat women as mothers before people) do not define womanhood through not having an active SRY gene, nor do they favour gender abolition. They want to firmly and aggressively enforce gender but call it sex, and you can see that with the way they harass and abuse GNC cis women and men in addition to trans people, how they refer to men wearing makeup as "womanface" (because again, they're massive racists) and how their biggest victims in terms of numbers are butch lesbians.

Your final paragraph is ridiculously racist and colonial in mindset, third genders in indigenous societies weren't concessions to homophobes, the claim that they were is founded on the belief that colonialism was liberatory towards the colonised (it wasn't). Far more regularly they were treated as being of religious significance but for the most part they were a part of societies which had constructed gender and sex differently to how the west had.
Reply 31
Original post by looloo2134
On your first point it interesting that you talk about sports and racism with Muslim Pakistan Yorkshire cricketer and failed to notices or worst not care about the articles about his disgusting anti semitic Facebook posts.

I give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read or see the post on the student forum. But others might believe that you only care when white show forms of prejudice. That you make excuses or choose to ignore when other ethic groups and religions do the same.

It a form of prejudice that you don't view prejudice from non white people seriously. I take every from of prejudice seriously whoever it comes from.


I was unaware of these. However, just because someone is racist to others does not mean we can be racist to them. Racism and anti-Semitism are unacceptable regardless of who is doing it or any supposed mitigating circumstances. You appear to be suggesting that his alleged anti-Semitic remarks justify him being racially abused. I do not.
Original post by hotpud
I was unaware of these. However, just because someone is racist to others does not mean we can be racist to them. Racism and anti-Semitism are unacceptable regardless of who is doing it or any supposed mitigating circumstances. You appear to be suggesting that his alleged anti-Semitic remarks justify him being racially abused. I do not.

Why is that people of Indian descent and especially hindus do so well in Britain and integrate well. They least likely commit crime and Pakistan Muslims are the opposite of course you get some Pakistan Muslim high achievers. They both come from a similar culture the only difference appears to be fath
Reply 33
Original post by looloo2134
Why is that people of Indian descent and especially hindus do so well in Britain and integrate well. They least likely commit crime and Pakistan Muslims are the opposite of course you get some Pakistan Muslim high achievers. They both come from a similar culture the only difference appears to be fath

A fair question to ask. I don't know. But then maybe we could ask similar questions like, why is there higher crime in council estates or why is there more drug taking amongst more financially deprived parts of society and take race out of the equation all together?

Perhaps when you look at economics rather than race you might find your answer? But to suggest it is all down to religion - nah. After all, tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed by Hindus in India, so that just doesn't wash at all.
Original post by hotpud
A fair question to ask. I don't know. But then maybe we could ask similar questions like, why is there higher crime in council estates or why is there more drug taking amongst more financially deprived parts of society and take race out of the equation all together?

Perhaps when you look at economics rather than race you might find your answer? But to suggest it is all down to religion - nah. After all, tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed by Hindus in India, so that just doesn't wash at all.

No it religion in Sweden for example 80s 90s they got refugee from Lebanon about half were Christians the another half were Muslims. They were both housed in socially deprived areas in a few years late about 90% of Christian of working age were employed or in higher education they also comit less crime than the local population.

For Muslims Lebanese refugees it about 40% to 50% who were employed they got involved local gangs and committed more crime than the local population.

There hundred of examples of Muslim doing worst than other religious groups from the same country.
Reply 35
Original post by looloo2134
No it religion in Sweden for example 80s 90s they got refugee from Lebanon about half were Christians the another half were Muslims. They were both housed in socially deprived areas in a few years late about 90% of Christian of working age were employed or in higher education they also comit less crime than the local population.

For Muslims Lebanese refugees it about 40% to 50% who were employed they got involved local gangs and committed more crime than the local population.

There hundred of examples of Muslim doing worst than other religious groups from the same country.

I'm sorry. But I am not going to debate the idea that religion is the root of all ills within a specific community. Would you please give me really specific examples of how these different communities were housed and the social attitudes towards them from those already here.

Imagine you were constantly criticised and prodded to the point you broke and lashed out. And then we cited your religious or non-religious views as the reason you lashed out? Sorry but there are a million and one reasons for what you are saying, but religion ain't one of them.
Original post by hotpud
I'm sorry. But I am not going to debate the idea that religion is the root of all ills within a specific community. Would you please give me really specific examples of how these different communities were housed and the social attitudes towards them from those already here.

Imagine you were constantly criticised and prodded to the point you broke and lashed out. And then we cited your religious or non-religious views as the reason you lashed out? Sorry but there are a million and one reasons for what you are saying, but religion ain't one of them.

It interesting that when it bad such failure to integrate you blame outside forces other than Islam. But something good you high light it unlike other religions.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
If your views are 'this group of people shouldn't be allowed to exist' then you should be silent and your views should not be tolerated in society because your views would cause material harm to people if enacted.


That's not my view though. Everyone should be allowed to exist and refer to themselves as whatever pronoun they want. You can call yourself he, she, or they, or anything else for that matter. I don't have a problem with that, I don't mean you any harm because of it, and certainly don't want to take away your right to do that.

My view on gender is that we've only got two - man and woman. So for me it's a simple case of a man is "he" and a woman is "she". I don't see why it needs to be any more complicated or why people would take offence. You can use whatever pronouns you want and that's absolutely fine, but you can't expect me to change a sincerely held belief in what gender is just to please you.

I really really don't agree with the "you should be silent and your views should not be tolerated" part. It's quite chilling. I can accept you (seem like) a decent enough person with good intentions but what gives you the right decide which views are acceptable? You think censorship is justified because you are in the right, that your cause is justified and anyone who disagrees is a threat. But what happens if that same censorship is then turned on you? As an example, you seem to support the Black Lives Matter protests. But they caused "material harm" at some of their protests. How would you feel if Trump said that BLM should keep silent and their views not tolerated in society as a result of that? Yes I know you think "oh that's different", but humour me and try to imagine how you would feel if the censorship was being used against you.
(edited 2 years ago)
Reply 38
Original post by looloo2134
It interesting that when it bad such failure to integrate you blame outside forces other than Islam. But something good you high light it unlike other religions.


When you talk about good examples of integration, presumably you are thinking of how the British retirees have integrated into Spanish society, adopting Spanish customs and traditions, speaking the language fluently and being a fully integrated part of Spanish society?
Original post by hotpud
Imagine you were constantly criticised and prodded to the point you broke and lashed out. And then we cited your religious or non-religious views as the reason you lashed out?

These days people seem more interested in winning arguments at all costs including tricks and gotchas, rather than having a debate in good faith.

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