The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

GeorgieBoy
Because they're idiots. If you're poor in this country (and have no inherant mental or physical disabilities), then you deserve to be poor. There are people in Africa who have access to none of the services like in this country; yet you see people in the UK making a mockery of the education sytem, and not making the most of what they have. You have an opportunity in the UK to do well; in Africa you have nothing. You'll be stuck in a viscious cyle all your life whilst some person who can't be ****** to work in the UK has a far more comfortable life. People need to see the bigger picture.


Absolutely agree with what you say - if you don't succeed in the UK, there's probably something wrong with you :yep:

You deserve +Rep
Lemming69
no it doesnt, it just shows warped morality, avoidance of progression and a poor sense of reality in terms of the composition of national and international society. Conservatives do not think that it is state responsibility to encourage equal opportunity and equality for all- they instead emphasise individual advancement- overlooking the obvious fact that some are in a greater position to prosper than others- leading to crevaces in society, whereby a minority wield power over the majority. conservatism works if we are in a society whereby everyone has equal opportunities. unfortunately, until such a society is established, conservatism will only drive a wedge between our current unequal state and progression.


Give me an example of a situation in which somebody does not have the opportunity to be just as successful as anybody else.
.Ali.
Oh my God, join the club haha! I've been to private and state, and at the moment I go to a state sixth form centre, and guess who's the only Conservative in the Class... :biggrin:

I agree with that, I asked one of my friends why he supports Labour and he said he'd 'just been brought up that way'.


haha together we can change the views of state school students :biggrin:

After seeing the following quote, I have to say we are in very similar situations:
.Ali.
"You live in a very affluent affluent constituency, what's it like?" I live 10 miles away from my sixth form, hardly anyone lives near me in that class
Tyrannosaurus Cal
Why does everything with you people have to be about money? I never want to be rich, because I've seen what people are like when they have too much money, and if I'm honest I don't really like them very much. (Not saying you, just in general. I had the misfortune to get a scholarship to a private school for a few years where I was bullied for being poor.)


I feel for you about being bullied - it's disgusting and I can see why you'd start hating the rich...they're not all like that though! :biggrin:

You ask why things 'with us' have to 'be about money'. But if your problem isn't money, then what the hell are you complaining about?

If you don't want to be rich, then that's your choice. If you don't want to be poor, that's your choice. The beauty of capitalism.
Elipsis
Having studied Russia/USSR for 3 years straight, doing my dissertation on this issue, so I think I understand Socialism perfectly well thank you. Please do some research into the basic theory of socialism and the effects it has had on every country it has been implemented in. Look at the socialist parties and their polices in Europe today. It is all geared towards income redistribution.


Can't be asked to explain myself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Tq4VE8eHQ
Reply 245
tripleeagle
Give me an example of a situation in which somebody does not have the opportunity to be just as successful as anybody else.


If one child was born into a family who rely on state benefits, whose priority is to survive, then it is less likely for their environment to be as fitting for 'opportunity and success' than a child who is born into a financially comfortable middle class family. Some families simply cannot afford to own a computer, or to promote deeply educational activities for their children outside of school, so to encourage intellectual exploration and the pursuing of similar opportunities is rendered far more difficult. Opportunity is indeed there, but for some it is much harder to find than for others.

I do not consider myself left wing, I would like to see the individual strive for success. However, although emphasis on a society whereby each individual is encouraged to progress independent of external support is very novel, the fact of the matter is that certain individuals do not have the means to progress in the way that they are capable of doing. Hence substantial state support is necessary- for it shall enable the less fortunate to be just as successful as the fortunate.

I am not saying that people should be loyal to the state, and that each person should be completely equal (because this is both unrealistic and impractical) but that the state should be loyal to society (you can probably sense that I am a wet liberal from such statements.) The reason I dislike conservatism is that it encourages the individual to advance on their own accord, but largely overlooks the fact that certain individuals do not have the environment in which to do such. I think that for a progressive society, the state should not merely encourage and take a back seat (the state which conservatism has often strived to create,) but take a pro-active position- acting as a father- guiding his child, as opposed to inducing a sutuation whereby the child has to actively search for a father figure.
For the record, I am quite impressed with Mr Cameron's efforts so far. I am less pleased with my libdem friends however, but this is another story.
Lemming69
If one child was born into a family who rely on state benefits, whose priority is to survive, then it is less likely for their environment to be as fitting for 'opportunity and success' than a child who is born into a financially comfortable middle class family. Some families simply cannot afford to own a computer, or to promote deeply educational activities for their children outside of school, so to encourage intellectual exploration and the pursuing of similar opportunities is rendered far more difficult. Opportunity is indeed there, but for some it is much harder to find than for others.


Well I guess we actually agree on this to some extent :smile: I recognise that it's much harder for certain children to be successful: in some families, the child has to use school computers instead of using their own laptop on their bed (although there is a benefit scheme whereby lower-income families get free computers and internet access worth around £650, in addition to the government's efforts to get every family on a computer), sometimes the child has to do extra work by themselves, spend time in the library and try to cope with classes of 40 children instead of getting 1to1 tuition at home, all the books they need and 15 kids to one teacher. However, as you say and I agree "opportunity is there" - equal opportunity - but the opportunity is harder to take advantage of.


Lemming69
I do not consider myself left wing, I would like to see the individual strive for success. However, although emphasis on a society whereby each individual is encouraged to progress independent of external support is very novel, the fact of the matter is that certain individuals do not have the means to progress in the way that they are capable of doing. Hence substantial state support is necessary- for it shall enable the less fortunate to be just as successful as the fortunate.


I absolutely 100% agree that the state should not promote pure 'free market economy' and should support those who work and wish to succeed. It's sad that we are not always able to differentiate between future chavs and future successes.

After all, if somebody is genuinely disabled, has just been made redundant, or simply wasn't born into a rich family, I think that the government should do what they can to help these people live properly, survive as they look for work, or to succeed despite their unfortunate predicament.


Lemming69
I am not saying that people should be loyal to the state, and that each person should be completely equal (because this is both unrealistic and impractical) but that the state should be loyal to society (you can probably sense that I am a wet liberal from such statements.) The reason I dislike conservatism is that it encourages the individual to advance on their own accord, but largely overlooks the fact that certain individuals do not have the environment in which to do such. I think that for a progressive society, the state should not merely encourage and take a back seat (the state which conservatism has often strived to create,) but take a pro-active position- acting as a father- guiding his child, as opposed to inducing a sutuation whereby the child has to actively search for a father figure.


Ahhh I see what you mean and I think this may in fact make me realise where the right-wing and the left-wing fundamentally disagree purely on opinion. I understand where you're coming from: whereas I would, as a Tory, prefer a more 'animal', 'survival of the fittest' (to some extent - where equal opportunities exist, so not entirely Darwinian) society in which people make a conscious desision to work, the more left-wing view which you've described above illustrates a situation in which every person is encouraged to work and start in a fair race. In the socialist position, every child would be pushed to work hard at first, while on the other hand the child has to decide to work hard. Well if I understand correctly, then I've just learned a lot - thank you! :biggrin:


Lemming69
For the record, I am quite impressed with Mr Cameron's efforts so far. I am less pleased with my libdem friends however, but this is another story.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 247
:yep:
tripleeagle
Well if I understand correctly, then I've just learned a lot - thank you! :biggrin:


no problem :smile: i'd never thought i'd get such positive responses from a tory haha!:rolleyes: its annoying though, because there are some out there who hold out of date views- not even thatcher would agree with some of the stuff i hear from some people. even though some whine about the new peice of child benefit legislation and things like that and how it makes those with higher incomes pay more, we all know its fair.

In terms of the free market, i agree- there has to be some form of state policing to make sure theres no foul play, but at the same time people should be given the freedom to profit from their successes. its hard to get the balance.
I think if this coalition had lib dems who were more to the left then government would be a lot more balanced. the market liberals (clegg and his crew) are pretty much conservatives apart from their love for the european union and reforming the parliamentary system. on the spectrum id probably be social liberal which is more socialist, but thats just because I like the philosophy- who wouldnt love an equal society:yep:

i'm reluctant to align myself to any party though because theres so much blending of policies going on- one minute labour is really socialist, next minute they release their grip on the economy like conservatives under blair. just a massive melting pot really. i just tend to sit on the fence and call myself 'liberal' when it comes to politics. id be a poor debater because i'd argue against myself- i think its important to see as many sides of an argument as we can really. i might make a diplomat though haha:o:
Lemming69
i'm reluctant to align myself to any party though because theres so much blending of policies going on- one minute labour is really socialist, next minute they release their grip on the economy like conservatives under blair. just a massive melting pot really. i just tend to sit on the fence and call myself 'liberal' when it comes to politics. id be a poor debater because i'd argue against myself- i think its important to see as many sides of an argument as we can really. i might make a diplomat though haha


I don't think that the Conservatives are perfect either, but I think that they're probably the best option to match my views in both a pragmatic sense and an ideological sense :tongue: Although I understand some of the reasons for a support of socialism, right now I am inclined to a system where ambition and hard work is rewarded :yep:

Part of being good at debating is seeing both sides of the argument and using your opponent's view to prepare to refute. As you say, you would make a brilliant diplomat though ^^
tripleeagle
Give me an example of a situation in which somebody does not have the opportunity to be just as successful as anybody else.


Are you aware of the term 'sink estate'?
Reply 250
tripleeagle
haha together we can change the views of state school students :biggrin:

After seeing the following quote, I have to say we are in very similar situations:


We can try at least! :biggrin:

It's strange isn't it haha. I was talking in my class about how graduate tax is a bad idea and that income tax would be better as a flat percentege rate, and everyone in my class was like "How can you say that?!" lol. Really not used to it! :p:
Magic_007
I know this is going to sound corny, but c'mon now, what is wrong in looking out for the poor?

Nothing. There is something wrong with wanting to coerce others into also helping the poor too though. There also the whole issue of the unseen and unintended consequences, and it's been economic freedom, not state involvement that has led to the huge prosperity we've experienced in the past 150 years.

Jeremy Irons
Are you aware of the term 'sink estate'?


Yes. And?
CTVicky
I think it's because most students are intelligent and middle-class. Most intelligent, middle class people are left-wing.


so very true :smile:
simontinsley
Nothing. There is something wrong with wanting to coerce others into also helping the poor too though. There also the whole issue of the unseen and unintended consequences, and it's been economic freedom, not state involvement that has led to the huge prosperity we've experienced in the past 150 years.



I like your graph, it shows that the standard of living of the poorest is important, not the disparity of wealth.

Latest

Trending

Trending