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GOGSoc Episode V: The GOG Strikes Back

It still seems plausible to me that Universities would prefer employing young people, fresh out of their PhDs because they could get away with giving them really temporary contracts. With your partner, they know that there would be much higher expectations on his part.

Original post by flying plum

Well, I'm not sure I would class it as 'silly', but he isn't minded the same way as I am, or many of the people on here. He's not an academic, and does particularly like to over analyse things, and the idea of power dynamics, historic or otherwise are me being silly and overanalysing. I think, to him, changing your name is somehow a symbol of love, commitment etc etc. I pointed out that it was actually a symbol of ownership that I didn't want to really subscribe to (just as I don't really want my dad to walk me down the aisle), but he just sees this as overthinking something that he sees as a 'nice tradition'. I questioned why, if it's such a sign of love or committment, he wouldn't take my name. 'That's not how it's done', apparently, and 'why do I always have to question everything'.

I wonder why we've been together so long, sometimes :biggrin:

Oh, and as for him going away and thinking about it - I think the whole argument (which took place almost three years ago now) was never really to do with changing names. If we want to overanalyse, it was also a lot to do with some insecurity and subsequent control issues that he had, which have been quietly eroded by me over the years. The same argument pops up frequently whenever I challenge anything in the status quo (eg. another frequent one is my veganism). It's just the way he is, and he has many other redeeming features, I can forgive the inability to engage in critical analysis or an engagement with feminist theory :smile:

Fair enough. Good on you for managing that. I'd probably go mental at being in a relationship where just thinking was criticised for 'overanalysing'.
I object to the implication that this issue is something to do with 'feminist theory' though! Straightforward equal consideration and fairness is not some sort of high faluting, academic theory...
Also I've not really read much feminist theory myself. Enough for one supervision essay at undergrad (so six chapters/articles, roughly). I find it problematic that people see fairness between genders as extreme or distinctly 'feminist'.

Original post by Cora Lindsay

Errrr...no!

Thanks, but how would I have known that? :lolwut:

Original post by Drogue

Even if thought about critically, there is the issue that the guy taking the girl's name raises questions from people, precisely because it's unusual. Were it not for social stigma I'd have had no issue taking Helen's name, but I'd rather not open myself to that many comments, jokes and assumptions from people.

It's such a hard problem in modern times. I'm no fan of double-barrelled surnames, and that gets worse a generation later as going triple- or quadruple-barrelled seems pretty silly. Keeping separate names presents the problem of which the kids take, and somehow it seems like less of a family if you have different surnames. Which leaves two options that I'd have been ok with: the girl takes the guys name (tradition making it common enough not to lead to assumptions) or they create a new surname for the new family. Helen didn't like the latter idea, though she'd decided she wanted to take my name before it was suggested as an idea. In fact, the first time we ever discussed this was Helen telling me she'd like to take my surname. I hadn't really thought about it before that, I was too preoccupied with proposing and then being generally excitable :o:

I didn't want something to show ownership, I just wanted something to show we were a family but that wouldn't get commented on or lead to assumptions whenever anyone found out. Sadly there aren't too many options for this.

I understand how you feel, but I have a very different personality so I don't mind standing out. In fairness I've always stuck out like sore thumb in society from birth, so its not like I've ever had the chance to pass myself off as 'normal' if I wanted to...

Anyway, if anything - for me and Dave - we'd be tempted to shake up this assumption that you're 'not a family' if members have different surnames. Going a long with that simply reproduces bias and prejudice towards civil partners or co-habiting couples, and I think society should be a lot more accepting and understanding of the different ways that people do family.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I have lots of nice role models in my family. Two of my Dad's brothers are married to women who kept their own names. In one case the daughters took the mother's name, and the son's the father's name. In the other the children all took a double barrelled name. I can't imagine anybody seeing them as less of a family. The thought seems odd to me.

Original post by Becca

I love this idea. Rebecca Annesdottir :awesome:

Original post by Feefifofum

I just tried to double-barrel your names in my head. Yours-His sounds like a kitchen caddy you'd buy from Lakeland, and His-Yours sounds like a Dickens character!

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1201

sj27

14

Original post by the_alba

It is unfortunate that D's ex-girlfriend, who is a *ahem* very difficult person *ahem* currently works there and would have had a lot to say about why no-one should give him a job.

Original post by IlexAquifolium

Much as I usually defend academia against claims that it's a unique bastion of elitism and plotting, there are points when I'm forced to conclude that this **** just doesn't happen anywhere else.

Oh, it definitely happens elsewhere too. It just seems to be... so much more intense, somehow, in academia. My year spent in academia was definitely the most politically-charged, backstabbing atmosphere I have worked in.

Reply 1202

sj27

14

Original post by Athena

20692th most frequent in 1998

20692nd, surely? :tongue:

Reply 1203

Helenia

20

Original post by Becca

I love this idea. Rebecca Annesdottir :awesome:

That does sound cool. Elizabethsdottir, however, it a bit of a mouthful. :p:

I've always wondered how you kept track of who is related to whom in that system, but maybe it doesn't matter?

Anyway, I sometimes feel like I am letting the feminist cause down by changing my name, but Will's already explained most of our reasons for doing it. The most important one, I think, is that it was my choice to do so, and that I wasn't forced into it by society. From a personal point of view, I haven't published anything in my maiden name, and it has too many memories of the crap nicknames I got at school as a result. I definitely prefer being known as Dr B rather than Mrs B though - I prefer to be defined by my professional achievements instead of the fact I happen to be married. Some women I know are Dr Maidenname professionally and Mrs Marriedname socially - this just seemed like far too much hassle for me.

Reply 1204

Helenia

20

Original post by Athena

Having been with the captain for all of two months, I think it's a wee bit early to be thinking about his surname - but as it stands I have one of the rarest surnames in England (20692th most frequent in 1998...) and I'm the only person with my surname on Pubmed. It makes me easy to find, and while it is a bitch to get people to spell it correctly, at least it makes me fairly unique! While I have had two boyfriends with rarer surnames (rare enough not to have a rank...), my first boyfriend, and the current one, have the 6th and 5th most common surnames in the country. Why would I want to be common? :tongue:

[For anyone interested in English surname distribution and frequency: http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/]

23717th.

And I'm the only (medical) Dr B in the country. :biggrin:

My maiden name is 90th, and there were 165 others on the GMC register, so I've definitely become a rarer commodity.

Reply 1205

Hylean

15

Original post by the_alba

*snips*

That's really **** and there's absolutely nothing wrong with launching a complaint if you can demonstrate/know that he was the stronger applicant. It's only right and at least you'll find out why he was rejected anyway.

Sorry to hear that though, it ****ing sucks.

Original post by Becca

I love this idea. Rebecca Annesdottir :awesome:

Original post by Helenia

That does sound cool. Elizabethsdottir, however, it a bit of a mouthful. :p:

I've always wondered how you kept track of who is related to whom in that system, but maybe it doesn't matter?

I love the pair of you went straight for the matronym. :mmm:

Not very common in Iceland, but it is heavily male-dominated in that regard.

For authentic Icelandic ones: Rebekka Önnudóttir and Elísabetardóttir for Helenia. Your first name wouldn't need to change, though if you add an "a" to it, it'll fit the Icelandic declension pattern better. :yep:

On the topic of marriage, I don't agree with it really. I do not need a piece of paper to tell me or anyone else that I want to be with my partner for the rest of my life and that I love them. That said, if they really want to get married, I won't fight it, as long as I actually do want to be with them for the rest of my life. As for names, I'm not that fussed. Surnames in Iceland aren't that important, but I would quite like to get my surname recognised as a family name, either that or just tell my kids there's a certain handful of names from my family that they should use for their kids, etc. If I did have an Icelandic wife, though, she wouldn't take my name and I find that doesn't bother me one bit.

Reply 1206

hobnob

14

Original post by Hylean

I love the pair of you went straight for the matronym. :mmm:

Not very common in Iceland, but it is heavily male-dominated in that regard.

So how is it decided, then? Do the parents just battle it out among themselves on the basis of what they think would sound better? :confused:

Reply 1207

The Lyceum

13

My surname is an awesome one with a long history and I wouldn't mind passing it onto my children. They won't take my middle names though until they prove their worth. :colonhash:

As soon as they can walk its going to be a series of swords, bows, horses and mathematics. Ah the Lykeioniades they'll be. :tongue:

Reply 1208

Hylean

15

Original post by hobnob

So how is it decided, then? Do the parents just battle it out among themselves on the basis of what they think would sound better? :confused:

The tradition is very much you take the father's name. Generally people who take the mother's name are making a statement: "I don't like my dad", "I don't know who my dad is", etc. There are some who do both and call themselves: StefánsdóttirMaríudóttir, to get both parents. I personally would choose on what sounds better. My dad's name is directly translatable, whereas my mum's isn't, so if I changed my name, I'd take his, despite her not liking this.

Reply 1209

The Lyceum

13

Hylean is your blue thing a FFVIII quote?

Reply 1210

Hylean

15

Original post by The Lyceum

Hylean is your blue thing a FFVIII quote?

It is indeed. :yep:

It's my favourite game in the series.

Reply 1211

The Lyceum

13

Original post by Hylean

It is indeed. :yep:

It's my favourite game in the series.

It used to be mine too until X came out, that just about takes it for me. Well I also really like IV and VI..hmm I genuinely forget how good some of the FF games are mainly because I'm not a fan of most JRPGs but yeah those four had some good moments. XII was a waste of time imo and I haven't got around to XIII yet.

Reply 1212

scarlet ibis

Sorry to hear your bad news, alba. How frustrating.

Feefifofum

I just tried to double-barrel your names in my head. Yours-His sounds like a kitchen caddy you'd buy from Lakeland, and His-Yours sounds like a Dickens character!

Haha.

Exactly why we will never double-barrel ours, notwithstanding the fact that I have a double barrelled first name too. A-A T-T :s-smilie:

Original post by Athena

[For anyone interested in English surname distribution and frequency: http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/]

Mine's 12393, and his is 4568. I'm surprised to learn that my name is less common. His has a very strong geographical concentration even in 1998, whereas mine was concentrated in Leicestershire in 1881 and has now spread more.

My name is my mum's too. My mum though my dad's was too silly to pass on to my sisters and I - it's not that bad (Bartram) but she thought it sounds like bathroom and we'd be teased! And I expect we'd pass on my name to any kids we have so despite convention my family name will have survived two generations of all-female offspring.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1213

Craghyrax

17

Original post by Athena

Having been with the captain for all of two months, I think it's a wee bit early to be thinking about his surname - but as it stands I have one of the rarest surnames in England (20692th most frequent in 1998...) and I'm the only person with my surname on Pubmed. It makes me easy to find, and while it is a bitch to get people to spell it correctly, at least it makes me fairly unique! While I have had two boyfriends with rarer surnames (rare enough not to have a rank...), my first boyfriend, and the current one, have the 6th and 5th most common surnames in the country. Why would I want to be common? :tongue:

[For anyone interested in English surname distribution and frequency: http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/]

Mine doesn't even show up on that list. I can well believe that there are less than a hundred of us here. Although its not the case that we're not British. On my Gran's side we come from the Buxtons, which is a very old, large English family.

For Buxton in 1998:

Frequency: 6747
Rank order: 900
Occurences per million: 181

A Buxton started reading English at Peterhouse in the year below me. I assumed it was just coincidence, but inevitably realised he was a distant cousin :facepalm:

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1214

Piggsil

16

Original post by Hylean

I love the pair of you went straight for the matronym. :mmm:

Not very common in Iceland, but it is heavily male-dominated in that regard.

For authentic Icelandic ones: Rebekka Önnudóttir and Elísabetardóttir for Helenia. Your first name wouldn't need to change, though if you add an "a" to it, it'll fit the Icelandic declension pattern better.

ooh I actually got tempted to change my Facebook profile name to that then :p:

pretty cool. Had no idea it was that uncommon to use the matronym. Shame really.

My surname is pretty common on that list, number 6000something. There are also many similar names but with different vowels. The cool thing is is that in 1881 it was very much a Cumbrian name, but my dad grew up in Kent and then relocated to the region on his origins without knowing it :biggrin:

Reply 1215

hobnob

14

Original post by Craghyrax

Mine doesn't even show up on that list. I can well believe that there are less than a hundred of us here. Although its not the case that we're not British. On my Gran's side we come from the Buxtons, which is a very old, large English family.
Well, no, but you're probably not wholly British, because it's a very German-sounding name. Plus it's a rare name even in German-speaking countries, so it's quite likely that everyone in the UK who does share your last name is directly related to you. :wink:

Reply 1216

Helenia

20

Original post by Hylean

The tradition is very much you take the father's name. Generally people who take the mother's name are making a statement: "I don't like my dad", "I don't know who my dad is", etc. There are some who do both and call themselves: StefánsdóttirMaríudóttir, to get both parents. I personally would choose on what sounds better. My dad's name is directly translatable, whereas my mum's isn't, so if I changed my name, I'd take his, despite her not liking this.

Oh, didn't realise that was how it worked, for some reason I had it in my head that girls took their mother's name. My Dad's name is Welsh, so I'm not sure how you'd work that one out!

I've now started looking for other family names - my Mum's maiden name is 13822nd, but on my Dad's side of the family they're all Joneses, married to other Joneses, which makes any kind of family history impossible!

Reply 1217

Drogue

19

Original post by Hylean

On the topic of marriage, I don't agree with it really. I do not need a piece of paper to tell me or anyone else that I want to be with my partner for the rest of my life and that I love them.

Nobody needs a piece of paper to tell them they want to be with their partner for the rest of their lives, but it's quite nice having one that says your partner wants to be with you, that they've signed. Marriage, in many ways, is a way of credibly communicating your feelings to your partner on where you see your relationship going. You could just tell them, but I feel it has more weight when there's a public profession of that commitment and a legal ceremony to recognise it.

I also find having a giant celebration dedicated to our love quite romantic and lovely.

Reply 1218

Drogue

19

Original post by Craghyrax

Anyway, if anything - for me and Dave - we'd be tempted to shake up this assumption that you're 'not a family' if members have different surnames. Going a long with that simply reproduces bias and prejudice towards civil partners or co-habiting couples, and I think society should be a lot more accepting and understanding of the different ways that people do family.

I can see your point with this. However as well as not wanting to stand out, I actually subscribe to the view that having one name makes you feel like more of a family. The same way we refer to organisms by a species and family name, to indicate closeness and common genetic links, the whole purpose of a surname (or family name) is to indicate that a group of people belong to the same family. Even without societal pressure, I want that for my family.

There's also a practical reason for the assumption - if people share a family name, you can be pretty sure they're a family and treat them as such. If they don't, you don't know.

I appreciate different families want to do things differently, so I'm not suggesting forcing anything on anyone else, however we all have our own view of an idyllic family, of what we'd want.

Reply 1219

obi_adorno_kenobi

The surnames map is fascinating. My actual surname isn't on there, unsurprisingly, as despite its age there are relatively few of us in existence. So much so that my gran recently had the "last of your line" talk with me. Otherwise it confirms two things: the concentration of my family in the South West, especially in Somerset, and Scotland - particularly the South West - and the spread of the Somerset branch to South Wales during the coal rush of the 1880s and 1890s. Pretty standard fare in that regard.

GOGSoc Episode V: The GOG Strikes Back

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