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TSR Graduate entry medics and applicants society!

apotoftea

Don't worry too much about shadowing - SGUL much prefer actual volunteering etc. Their work experience scoring sheet is on their website :smile:

Oh cool, thanks. I'll probably carry on volunteering when I go back to uni too. I might still do some shadowing if I can just for myself to see what it's like.

I wouldn't want to do a 5 year course either and I couldn't even if I wanted to because I didn't do science post GCSE.

On a slightly related note when should I start preparing for GAMSAT? Considering I haven't done any science in so long I don't think I should leave it until the last minute...

Reply 581

ilovehotchocolate

8

Bigturkey

On a slightly related note when should I start preparing for GAMSAT? Considering I haven't done any science in so long I don't think I should leave it until the last minute...

Then start as soon as possible, it can't hurt to do a little a day. The science part of the GANSAT can be tackled with little science knowledge as most of the science realting to the question is in the main body of text preceeding the question. However, the more you know naturally without having to read and understand, the faster you will be able to answer the question, and time is of the essence for the GAMSAT.
I reccommend getting Griffiths GAMSAT review which is an ebook that, among other things, contains a list of topics to revise. Then go and look at the CGP and A Level in a week revision series, have a look at a couple of the topics in each book and see which one you understand best and get them.

Reply 582

apotoftea

19

anon2010

it is easier to get in to most 5yr course over the 4yr course overall so that argument doesn't really stand either.

It entirely depends on what course/university you're looking at if you look at the actual numbers.

if it wasnt for the cost then 5yr would be way better for all grads.

Possibly - surely that comes down to the individual person?

Re: your other thoughts - mature students ARE fantastic and really do help with varying discussions, my point is that it can however cause issues within a student year group (am speaking from experience here so trust me on this one) and given that you have to deal with all ages/walks of life in any subject area and job it's a problem across the board. I'm not saying all 18yr olds refuse to talk to mature students and vice versa but a nervy fresh out of school 18 yr old may not want to talk and work with someone who could be their mum (taking an extreme example here).

Re: more chance of an offer. Again depends on the university that offers both courses. The guy at SGUL said that they now don't let graduates onto the 5 year course because why should they be picking an Arts graduate for a place just because they've got a degree and a bit of life experience over an 18 yr old who's worked their butt off to meet the 4As and oodles of extra-curricula activities requirement. I think there's a case of making it fairer for the school leavers really as on some levels it isn't fair that they're already fighting to get onto a competitive course against their peers, let alone against a bunch of grads. Also from what I've been told from people in the know, even the 5 yr courses have x amount of places available for graduate applicants. So it's not a case of applying for a 5 year because they take on 200 students. They may well take on 200 students but only a fraction of those places are for graduates.

Re: science content - some 4 year courses actually drop the intense science related work and instead focus on the actual medicine and patient care (hence why Arts graduates can start the 4 year course with only the knowledge they have from passing GAMSAT at the required level). And the general consensus is that you can't split arts grads from science grads after the first year on a 4 year course.

Workload - that's entirely personal as some people thrive under pressure of always having something to do etc.

Like I said before - swings and roundabouts as it's such an individual thing :smile:

Reply 583

anon2010

11

overall i do understand what you are trying to say but i have been a mature student my self and know quite a few grad entry medic so i still slightly disagree with you.

apotoftea

It entirely depends on what course/university you're looking at if you look at the actual numbers.

Possibly - surely that comes down to the individual person?

Re: your other thoughts - mature students ARE fantastic and really do help with varying discussions, my point is that it can however cause issues within a student year group (am speaking from experience here so trust me on this one) and given that you have to deal with all ages/walks of life in any subject area and job it's a problem across the board. I'm not saying all 18yr olds refuse to talk to mature students and vice versa but a nervy fresh out of school 18 yr old may not want to talk and work with someone who could be their mum (taking an extreme example here). this is something that the said 18 year old will have to deal with if they expect to get a job after uni. university is for adults, it is not school and so if an 18 year old feels like they would not be able to cope with working with older people, even in a safe environment like uni, then maybe they are not ready for uni and they are certainly not ready for medicine because even if they are a paediatrician they will still have to deal with/work with adults old enough to be their parents. so what you discribed above is actaully the 18 years olds problem not the mature students and i am sure the uni would see it this way too.

whats your opinion on a 35 year old applying to medicine who isnt a grad (eg worked as a HCA for years and the did a few science alevels when she/he was older) they do not have a choice they have to apply to 5yr courses.... should they be rejected form the med school even if they have exactly what the med school is looking for just because the 18 year olds would struggle with a class mate twice their age? i dont think so... and this is not a exaggeration because many mature applicants fall within this category that is why access course where invented.

Re: more chance of an offer. Again depends on the university that offers both courses. The guy at SGUL said that they now don't let graduates onto the 5 year course because why should they be picking an Arts graduate for a place just because they've got a degree and a bit of life experience over an 18 yr old who's worked their butt off to meet the 4As and oodles of extra-curricula activities requirement. I think there's a case of making it fairer for the school leavers really as on some levels it isn't fair that they're already fighting to get onto a competitive course against their peers, let alone against a bunch of grads. Also from what I've been told from people in the know, even the 5 yr courses have x amount of places available for graduate applicants. So it's not a case of applying for a 5 year because they take on 200 students. They may well take on 200 students but only a fraction of those places are for graduates.
not all med schools do this though. some will just give places to those who score the highest during the whole application period. of course it depends what school you apply to but to increase your chances greatly then applying to 5yr is the answer. the offer to applicant ratio is smaller on average. trying to make it easier for people to get in is not what med schools are about, they only want the best applicants who could potentially be the best doctors. SGUL dont take grads on their 5yr course for funding reasons.

Re: science content - some 4 year courses actually drop the intense science related work and instead focus on the actual medicine and patient care (hence why Arts graduates can start the 4 year course with only the knowledge they have from passing GAMSAT at the required level). And the general consensus is that you can't split arts grads from science grads after the first year on a 4 year course.
but GAMSAT is of Alevel standard so technically you have a similar knowledge to a science Alevel student despite what degree you do.

Workload - that's entirely personal as some people thrive under pressure of always having something to do etc. of course it depends on the person but if a arts grad (or even a science grad for that matter) is worried about their science knowledge then starting a 5yr course would help them get the basics down.

Like I said before - swings and roundabouts as it's such an individual thing :smile:

it is a very individual thing but the original argument was 'why would grads apply to 5yr courses?' and i think that all of my reasons in the last two posts have explained why they would. i am not saying that 5 yr is better than 4yr just that i do believe that there is a lot a uni and the applicant can gain by taking grads onto the 5yr courses that is why they DO accept them.

Reply 584

apotoftea

19

anon2010

this is something that the said 18 year old will have to deal with if they expect to get a job after uni. university is for adults, it is not school and so if an 18 year old feels like they would not be able to cope with working with older people, even in a safe environment like uni, then maybe they are not ready for uni and they are certainly not ready for medicine because even if they are a paediatrician they will still have to deal with/work with adults old enough to be their parents. so what you discribed above is actaully the 18 years olds problem not the mature students and i am sure the uni would see it this way too.

Yes it is the 18 yr olds problem, however, it happens every September at every university in the country and universities are aware of age gaps amongst students. Whoever's problem it is and they do need to grow up and realise university isn't like school, it's still something that tutors may well think about.

not all med schools do this though. some will just give places to those who score the highest during the whole application period. of course it depends what school you apply to but to increase your chances greatly then applying to 5yr is the answer. the offer to applicant ratio is smaller on average. trying to make it easier for people to get in is not what med schools are about, they only want the best applicants who could potentially be the best doctors. SGUL dont take grads on their 5yr course for funding reasons.

Re: SGUL - the 4 year course director openly said it was about competition of places rather than funding (given how they've increased the numbers on the 4 year to over 100 students). It may come under different parts of HE funding but nevertheless, funding certainly didn't seem to be an issue.

but GAMSAT is of Alevel standard so technically you have a similar knowledge to a science Alevel student despite what degree you do.

I think self-taught A-level Science as GAMSAT prep over say 3 or 4 months is slightly different to that of someone having actually studied it over 2 years. Not that A-level exams are about reasoning and logic...

of course it depends on the person but if a arts grad (or even a science grad for that matter) is worried about their science knowledge then starting a 5yr course would help them get the basics down.

That I do agree with (although depends on what 5 year course) but as a graduate or a mature student - I think priorities can change and differ as you get older. I'm sure some older graduates would probably be more concerned with financial and family issues for example than science content given the support, help and advice you can get on MBBS courses :smile:

Also, like your point about dropping out, you may find graduates are more inclined to knuckle down and further their knowledge through extra work, peer advice etc because it's what they want to do.

Don't get me wrong graduates can and do gain a lot from the 5 year and so can unis but it's honestly such a personal thing. I've got numerous reasons for not really wanting to do a 5 year course if I'm honest but that's my own personal choice.

The question asked doesn't have a definite answer because of the numerous factors it entails. There are benefits but those benefits may not suit every single graduate on a 5 year course. The same way people have a love/hate relationship with PBL for example. :smile:

Reply 585

fortysixandtwo

8

apotoftea

The guy at SGUL said that they now don't let graduates onto the 5 year course because why should they be picking an Arts graduate for a place just because they've got a degree and a bit of life experience over an 18 yr old who's worked their butt off to meet the 4As and oodles of extra-curricula activities requirement.

Maybe you're cleverly playing devils advocate here but maybe not. I'm guessing you haven't done a degree because imo achieving a 2:i is way tougher than 3/4 A levels. And it ain't even close.

apotoftea

I think there's a case of making it fairer for the school leavers really as on some levels it isn't fair that they're already fighting to get onto a competitive course against their peers, let alone against a bunch of grads. Also from what I've been told from people in the know, even the 5 yr courses have x amount of places available for graduate applicants. So it's not a case of applying for a 5 year because they take on 200 students. They may well take on 200 students but only a fraction of those places are for graduates.

I'm fairly sure, like you point out, that for most 5 year courses, the graduates will be competing against other graduates so it's fair enough for the school leavers.

What age would you class 'mature'? Reading your arguments I would imagine you're talking about 35+.

Anyway, I think diversity is great for all involved. Mature students aren't any better than school leavers and vice versa.

Reply 586

apotoftea

19

fortysixandtwo

Maybe you're cleverly playing devils advocate here but maybe not. I'm guessing you haven't done a degree because imo achieving a 2:i is way tougher than 3/4 A levels. And it ain't even close.

I've done two actually, have both a BA and an MA. The argument over 18yr olds not competing with graduates on a 5 year course was said quite openly by the course director at the SGUL GEP open day as one of their reasons for not letting graduates apply to both. Like you've said, a degree is far more difficult so why take on graduates onto a 5 year course for that reason and then unfairly penalise the school-leavers in the process (by effectively having fewer places for them on the course) despite them getting straight As or whatever which is still an achievement within their own cohort. You can't compare graduates to 18 yrs on a even scale as academially, the grads would always come out on top which is what SGUL's point is I believe.

What age would you class 'mature'? Reading your arguments I would imagine you're talking about 35+.

Yup, mature to me is anyone over 35/40. I've never understood the idea of mature being 'over 21' which is the standardised opinion.

Anyway, I think diversity is great for all involved. Mature students aren't any better than school leavers and vice versa.

Agreed. My point was that it does come with its problems occasionally that's all. :smile:

Reply 587

anon2010

11

if 18-20 years old are classed as school leavers and 35-40 years old are classed as mature students then wht do you call 21-35 year old?

Reply 588

username81886

1

I think people get way too bogged down in this it's harder to get onto a four year course/there are more places on 5 year courses. There are more places on 5 year courses but there's also more people applying. The ratios for applicants to places can actually be more favourable on some 4 year courses. Personally I can't see why I would have got onto a 5 year course if i hadn't got onto any of the 4 year ones I applied for, so it made no sense at all to apply for a longer course, but really you all just need to apply where you want to go.

Reply 589

ilovehotchocolate

8

I don't know about the rest but I know Peninsula look at how many over 21's apply compared to school leavers and allocate a similar ratio of their places for them. Because they offer quite late, a large number of grads have given up by then and have opted for one of their four year offers, so there's more places for those of us who hang in there. Of course PMS might be slightly bias in that they love their grads, but I haven't really looked into the rest of the 5 year courses that accept grads and how much they favour them. Personally, I'd prefer a five year course over a 4 year simply because I love uni and being a student :smile:

Student discounts are lush and being a real working person with 9-5's and taxes is pants :p:

That and I'd like longer to absorb the material, so an extra year, a slower pace and knowing I already know bits of it so I can spend time looking bits I don't know or bits I enjoy in more depth seems like a good idea to me.

Reply 590

2klthor

ilovehotchocolate

I don't know about the rest but I know Peninsula look at how many over 21's apply compared to school leavers and allocate a similar ratio of their places for them. Because they offer quite late, a large number of grads have given up by then and have opted for one of their four year offers, so there's more places for those of us who hang in there. Of course PMS might be slightly bias in that they love their grads, but I haven't really looked into the rest of the 5 year courses that accept grads and how much they favour them. Personally, I'd prefer a five year course over a 4 year simply because I love uni and being a student :smile:

Student discounts are lush and being a real working person with 9-5's and taxes is pants :p:

That and I'd like longer to absorb the material, so an extra year, a slower pace and knowing I already know bits of it so I can spend time looking bits I don't know or bits I enjoy in more depth seems like a good idea to me.

I agree with you entirely. An extra year is nothing. The work load on some of the 4 year courses I was looking at was insane! The only issue with 5 year courses is finance - if thats not a problem then 5 years are much better IMO :biggrin:

. I must stress HYMS are also very 'graduate friendly' with just under half of there yearly intake being grads!

Reply 591

username356927

13

ilovehotchocolate

I don't know about the rest but I know Peninsula look at how many over 21's apply compared to school leavers and allocate a similar ratio of their places for them. Because they offer quite late, a large number of grads have given up by then and have opted for one of their four year offers, so there's more places for those of us who hang in there. Of course PMS might be slightly bias in that they love their grads, but I haven't really looked into the rest of the 5 year courses that accept grads and how much they favour them. Personally, I'd prefer a five year course over a 4 year simply because I love uni and being a student :smile:

Student discounts are lush and being a real working person with 9-5's and taxes is pants :p:

That and I'd like longer to absorb the material, so an extra year, a slower pace and knowing I already know bits of it so I can spend time looking bits I don't know or bits I enjoy in more depth seems like a good idea to me.

I don't think I could stomach that long at uni.

Reply 592

Nutta!

10

anon2010

if 18-20 years old are classed as school leavers and 35-40 years old are classed as mature students then wht do you call 21-35 year old?

People that got in and didnt get the grades..

I dunno- young people

Reply 593

anon2010

11

Nutta!

People that got in and didnt get the grades..

I dunno- young people

well this is not always true. i have never applied to med before nor did i miss grades but i am considering doing so after my degree and i am under 35 but over 21.

Reply 594

GodspeedGehenna

3

anon2010

well this is not always true. i have never applied to med before nor did i miss grades but i am considering doing so after my degree and i am under 35 but over 21.

Before you start chomping at the bit; I don't think he was being serious.

Reply 595

anon2010

11

GodspeedGehenna

Before you start chomping at the bit; I don't think he was being serious.

what? are you expecting me to start a fight of something? i was just saying that it is not always the case and i was going to leave it at that.

Reply 596

Nutta!

10

GodspeedGehenna

Before you start chomping at the bit; I don't think he was being serious.

Im a she

Reply 597

Nutta!

10

anon2010

well this is not always true. i have never applied to med before nor did i miss grades but i am considering doing so after my degree and i am under 35 but over 21.