The Student Room Group

Scroll to see replies

doG1
'Firstly' isn't a word.

f7


Err... yes it is. It's an adverb and you often use it to introduce points. Where did you get the idea it isn't a word? :s-smilie: (Granted, the OP spelt it wrong - but spelt correctly as you have it definitely is a word)
Reply 21
DavidR1991
Err... yes it is. It's an adverb and you often use it to introduce points. Where did you get the idea it isn't a word? :s-smilie: (Granted, the OP spelt it wrong - but spelt correctly as you have it definitely is a word)

Unfortunately, due to continued colloquial use and its logical construction, it has crept into formal use. It is, however, commonly known not to be a traditionally correct English word. The examples in my previous post further highlight this point.
Reply 22
doG1
Unfortunately, due to continued colloquial use and its logical construction, it has crept into formal use. It is, however, commonly known not to be a traditionally correct English word. The examples in my previous post further highlight this point.

The earliest example of its usage cited in the OED dates from around 1532. How long does a word need to have been around for in order to be "traditionally correct" in your book?:s-smilie:
Reply 23
hobnob
The earliest example of its usage cited in the OED dates from around 1532. How long does a word need to have been around for in order to be "traditionally correct" in your book?:s-smilie:

"The word is not in Johnson's Dict. Smart (1846) s.v. First has the note: ‘Some late authors use Firstly for the sake of its more accordant sound with secondly, thirdly, etc."

Why did you ignore this bit? This is essentially my point. While it is now obviously used quite freely, a lot still uphold the traditional stance that it was only ever initially created due to its accordant sound with secondly etc (i.e. its 'logical construction' as i called it in my other post).

I'm not saying it doesn't exist as a word or anything, i'm just arguing the particular case of its inception.



:woo:
Reply 24
doG1
Would you say that 'electronical' ,'emo' or 'shemale' are words?
Of course.
Reply 25
doG1
"The word is not in Johnson's Dict. Smart (1846) s.v. First has the note: ‘Some late authors use Firstly for the sake of its more accordant sound with secondly, thirdly, etc."

Why did you ignore this bit? This is essentially my point. While it is now obviously used quite freely, a lot still uphold the traditional stance that it was only ever initially created due to its accordant sound with secondly etc (i.e. its 'logical construction' as i called it in my other post).
Why should the opinions of a prescriptive 19th-century lexicographer count for more than the fact that by then it had already been used for several centuries, though?:confused: He was certainly wrong about the "some late authors" bit - there are 305 results for pre-1700 usage of 'firstly" on the EEBO database.
18th- and 19th-century lexicographers (well, people in general, really) took an incredibly fussy and prescriptive approach to spelling and etymology, and sometimes they did in fact get things wrong. So just because Mr Smart said that this is how the word came about that doesn't necessarily mean that's what really happened.

Lots of words which seem perfectly "correct" today turn out to have slightly dodgy origins if you look back far enough, but that's how language works. It changes. Maybe 'firstly' was an erroneous 16th-century formation, or maybe it was originally a regional variant, but the point is that it is a perfectly good word to use now, so there's no reason to get hung up on its origins, really. Just because it may have been wrong in 1532 - and we don't even know for certain that it was - that doesn't mean it's wrong now, surely?
Reply 26
I'll do it, just send it to me via email and bobs your uncle!!! :smile:
Reply 27
AdamWalsh
I'll do it, just send it to me via email and bobs your uncle!!! :smile:

You're too late.
Reply 28
hobnob
18th- and 19th-century lexicographers (well, people in general, really) took an incredibly fussy and prescriptive approach to spelling and etymology, and sometimes they did in fact get things wrong. So just because Mr Smart said that this is how the word came about that doesn't necessarily mean that's what really happened.
Death to prescriptivists! :mob:
I'll do it, as long as it's an interesting story about a spoon called Jeremy who has an adventure with his cat in Tanzania. Otherwise you can **** off and do it yourself
Reply 30
hobnob
Why should the opinions of a prescriptive 19th-century lexicographer count for more than the fact that by then it had already been used for several centuries, though?:confused: He was certainly wrong about the "some late authors" bit - there are 305 results for pre-1700 usage of 'firstly" on the EEBO database.
18th- and 19th-century lexicographers (well, people in general, really) took an incredibly fussy and prescriptive approach to spelling and etymology, and sometimes they did in fact get things wrong. So just because Mr Smart said that this is how the word came about that doesn't necessarily mean that's what really happened.

Lots of words which seem perfectly "correct" today turn out to have slightly dodgy origins if you look back far enough, but that's how language works. It changes. Maybe 'firstly' was an erroneous 16th-century formation, or maybe it was originally a regional variant, but the point is that it is a perfectly good word to use now, so there's no reason to get hung up on its origins, really. Just because it may have been wrong in 1532 - and we don't even know for certain that it was - that doesn't mean it's wrong now, surely?

Admittedly, Smart (the lexicographer) may not be an absolute authority but doesn't the inclusion of his quote in the OED tell you something? The point I'm making is pendantic and technical (i've already said why i felt the need to make it :biggrin: ) but I don't think it's one that can be disproved, although those of a lenient mindset will believe it can be.

And you're completely correct, a lot of words have a 'dodgy' past if you go back far enough - but 'firstly' wasn't included in Johnson's dictionary (1740s or something?), is that not a more forceful point? Moreover, why can't it be the case that all 'dodgy' words are technically incorrect? Just because there's a lot of them doesn't mean we have to say that their inception was legitimate.

But, yeah, i suppose it is a word now but only for reasons of incessant use.
doG1
'firstly' wasn't included in Johnson's dictionary (1740s or something?), is that not a more forceful point?


Of course it's not; if we excluded words that Johnson didn't happen to notice we wouldn't have much of a language, would we? He defined fewer than 43,000 words while the current OED has over 300,000 main entries.
Reply 32
Good bloke
Of course it's not; if we excluded words that Johnson didn't happen to notice we wouldn't have much of a language, would we? He defined fewer than 43,000 words while the current OED has over 300,000 main entries.

The point is though that 'firstly' existed when Johnson compiled the dictionary but he chose not to include it. I dont think he would have completely missed it!! The extra 250,000 are likely to have been invented out of neccessity after 1750. Just a guess though.

Anyway thanks for picking holes! I did have a few other points. :p:
GTFO, I only do erotic lit.
doG1
The point is though that 'firstly' existed when Johnson compiled the dictionary but he chose not to include it. I dont think he would have completely missed it!!


Not at all - Johnson was criticised at the time (he famously deliberately omitted such words as bang, budge, fuss, gambler, shabby and touchy ) and a whole episode of Blackadder was focused on him and his omissions. Or are you claiming that fuss is not a valid word because Johnson omitted it?
Reply 35
doG1
'Firstly' isn't a word.

f7

debatable
I think the OP has bigger issues e.g. "grammer"
I'll happily read through it for you, although you've probably got a better offer now (haven't read through the thread pages :colondollar:).
doG1
Unfortunately, due to continued colloquial use and its logical construction, it has crept into formal use. It is, however, commonly known not to be a traditionally correct English word. The examples in my previous post further highlight this point.

I agree; you're supposed to use 'first' not 'firstly'. Although, 'second' and 'secondly' (and so on) are interchangeable.
Reply 38
Good bloke
Not at all - Johnson was criticised at the time (he famously deliberately omitted such words as bang, budge, fuss, gambler, shabby and touchy ) and a whole episode of Blackadder was focused on him and his omissions. Or are you claiming that fuss is not a valid word because Johnson omitted it?

Haha ok ok, maybe not. But does this omission, along with the lexicographer in the OED, not show that there must be something behind the argument?

And, like i said, it wasn't a main point. :s-smilie:
Reply 39
K the Failure
GTFO, I only do erotic lit.


:rofl:

Latest

Trending

Trending