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west lothian question

LH

Have you read the thread? We're talking about MSPs here. English MPs cannot vote on Scottish issues which are decided in the Scottish Parliament. Scottish MPs can, however, vote on English (and Welsh) issues as these are still decided on at the Westminster Parliament. Eg: Top-up fees

then people should make it obvious...

i see many people talking about "MPs"...

not so much about "MSPs". so kindly log off.

Reply 21

Greyhound02

7

Just ban the Scots and Welsh from voting on English-only affairs

Reply 22

an Siarach

15

Greyhound02

Just ban the Scots and Welsh from voting on English-only affairs

And while youre at it disband the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and award the devolved powers held by these second class politicians to their first class peers in westminster. The thought of having a politician of the quality of Gordon Brown, Robin Cook (RIP) and any of the other top quality scots working down south as First Minister of Scotland instead of the bloody awful sub-local council quality Jack McConnel is mouthwatering.

Reply 23

Mr Brightside

Just don't let Scottish MP's vote on matters affecting England or Wales. Easy isn't it. What massive legislation would be needed to fix that? none.

Reply 24

Mr Brightside

an Siarach

And while youre at it disband the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and award the devolved powers held by these second class politicians to their first class peers in westminster. The thought of having a politician of the quality of Gordon Brown, Robin Cook (RIP) and any of the other top quality scots working down south as First Minister of Scotland instead of the bloody awful sub-local council quality Jack McConnel is mouthwatering.

From someone who uses Scotss Gaelic that is a strange statement. How about a totally independent Scotland?

Reply 25

Alexdel

10

Funny...we don't like scots voting on our affairs when in fact we have been doing this to them for centuries..

Reply 26

an Siarach

15

Woodsy

From someone who uses Scotss Gaelic that is a strange statement. How about a totally independent Scotland?

What on earth does any linguistic tendency have to do with whether or not i would propose a political solution which would save both Scotland and the UK a lot of money wasted on second rate politicians who are totally unnecessary? What about an independant Scotland? Whether Scotland is independant or not it will remain be run by anglo-saxons as 99% of the scottish population is anglo saxon. Im not one for misty eyed delusions of patriotic grandeur. Given the state of the scottish economy and the fact that the job market is dominated to a huge extent by the state sector independance would be disasterous atm although given the very,very high standard of scottish politician whether it would remain so for long were our homegrown leaders forced to work for Scotland rather than the UK is debatable.

Reply 27

an Siarach

15

Alexdel

Funny...we don't like scots voting on our affairs when in fact we have been doing this to them for centuries..

But the Scots were able to vote in english affairs all along whereas now its one way traffic and grossly unfair. If the SNP werent such a selfish shower of hypocrites theyd be campaigning for a fairer system at westminster which would stop them and the other scots MPs from voting on issues which do not directly concern them or their constituents.

Reply 28

Carl

14

LH

Have you read the thread? We're talking about MSPs here. English MPs cannot vote on Scottish issues which are decided in the Scottish Parliament. Scottish MPs can, however, vote on English (and Welsh) issues as these are still decided on at the Westminster Parliament. Eg: Top-up fees

Have you read the thread? The West Lothian question applies equally to Scots and Welsh MSPs/AMs because they can both form policy and in the Scots case draft legislation, whilst at the same time Welsh and Scots MPs can vote on English issues. Education reform is a classic example, where the Welsh and Scots assemblies have opted not to got for top-up fees, but Welsh, Scots, English and NI MPs have adopted top up fees which will apply only in England.

Reply 29

Carl

14

an Siarach

And while youre at it disband the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and award the devolved powers held by these second class politicians to their first class peers in westminster. The thought of having a politician of the quality of Gordon Brown, Robin Cook (RIP) and any of the other top quality scots working down south as First Minister of Scotland instead of the bloody awful sub-local council quality Jack McConnel is mouthwatering.

Well I hate to beg to differ, but the Welsh Assembly has a number of politicians who jumped ship from Westminster, and since then have done a very good job at administering the areas of policy they are responsible for. The Welsh Assembly may not be the sovereign body, but is by no means a second class institution.

Reply 30

an Siarach

15

Carl

Well I hate to beg to differ, but the Welsh Assembly has a number of politicians who jumped ship from Westminster, and since then have done a very good job at administering the areas of policy they are responsible for. The Welsh Assembly may not be the sovereign body, but is by no means a second class institution.

But the quality of politician would be even higher if you had one group working in both westminster and the welsh assembly. Scotland has suffered badly enough with all of our top class politicians staying in Westminster. Donald Dewar was the only top class First Minister weve had and other than him youre left with Alex Salmond who ran off back to London - the rest are bloody dire although the Tories arent too bad, probably as theyre completely unelectable under the FPTP westminster system and so have no choice but to stand as MSPs. My gripe is that we have two groups of people doing the job of one and consequently efficiency suffers as well as huge amounts of money going to waste. Give Welsh MPs the powers accorded the Welsh Assembly and give Scottish MPs the powers accorded to Holyrood.

Reply 31

Carl

14

an Siarach

But the quality of politician would be even higher if you had one group working in both westminster and the welsh assembly. Scotland has suffered badly enough with all of our top class politicians staying in Westminster. Donald Dewar was the only top class First Minister weve had and other than him youre left with Alex Salmond who ran off back to London - the rest are bloody dire although the Tories arent too bad, probably as theyre completely unelectable under the FPTP westminster system and so have no choice but to stand as MSPs. My gripe is that we have two groups of people doing the job of one and consequently efficiency suffers as well as huge amounts of money going to waste. Give Welsh MPs the powers accorded the Welsh Assembly and give Scottish MPs the powers accorded to Holyrood.

Ok now you've phrased it like that I agree. I think Wales suffers from the same problems as Scotland, but the other way around. The Assembly has a great number of talented AMs, and the Assembly as a whole is much more representative of the Welsh people (via our electoral system). When compared to Welsh MPs, I believe they (the Welsh MPs) don't wield any real power for Wales as the majority of decisions of national importance are made at cabinet level, and the majority of policy decisions regarding Wales are made at the Assembly.

There is a clear overlap that needs to be resolved, and I agree that if AMs could sit at both Houses, with the removal of the Welsh MPs, (I think a useful ratio would be three Assembly days to two Westminster days) a practical solution could be reached.

Reply 32

an Siarach

15

Carl

Ok now you've phrased it like that I agree. I think Wales suffers from the same problems as Scotland, but the other way around. The Assembly has a great number of talented AMs, and the Assembly as a whole is much more representative of the Welsh people (via our electoral system). When compared to Welsh MPs, I believe they (the Welsh MPs) don't wield any real power for Wales as the majority of decisions of national importance are made at cabinet level, and the majority of policy decisions regarding Wales are made at the Assembly.

There is a clear overlap that needs to be resolved, and I agree that if AMs could sit at both Houses, with the removal of the Welsh MPs, (I think a useful ratio would be three Assembly days to two Westminster days) a practical solution could be reached.

That sounds very agreeable to me. In scotland it would be two Holyrood days a week (which we currently pay the MSPs about 50 grand a year for :mad:

) and the rest spent on national(british) rather than provincial(scottish) issues in London.

Reply 33

L i b

19

LH

Have you read the thread? We're talking about MSPs here. English MPs cannot vote on Scottish issues which are decided in the Scottish Parliament. Scottish MPs can, however, vote on English (and Welsh) issues as these are still decided on at the Westminster Parliament. Eg: Top-up fees

I think you're operating on a misconception here. All members of the Parliament of Great Britain (&NI) are equal and the Parliament is supreme. Any MP can propose a Bill before it which can deal with any matter, and all MPs can vote on such a Bill. I can't imagine an effective British Parliament where that wasn't the case.

In reality, there is no West Lothian Question. That is my position on the matter. The preferable situation would be for MPs simply to abstain from votes on bills that have effect outside their constituencies - that I'd see as reasonable and could be done. Of course, it involves disbanding the Scottish Parliament.

The other alternative is an English Assembly, and perhaps a few provincial assemblies at a lower level across the UK too.

Lord Waddell

The way I see it, what will happen eventually is that the UK will become federal... About should come a whole reform of government, and for the House of Lords I propose that each local assembly or parliament sends representatives to there, and the Queen with a royal commission appoints the rest for life, so it doesn't depend on the Prime Minister of the day. .

The Prime Minister is the Queen's Chief Advisor. It's undoubted he'd have some say in the matter.

The UK won't become federal. One day I hope we have uniform devolution, but that is very different from federalism. If you ask me, federalism is a pretty alien concept to the United Kingdom, the emphasis is on our centre: the sovereignty of our Parliament, our Queen and so forth.

More importantly, it lends credibility to Nationalistic aspirations. I'd rather not have a situation like that.

Lord Waddell

And they put in right in the middle of the Old Town of Edinburgh. How stupid can you get, plonking down something that looks like a pile of concrete with sticks coming out of it in the middle of 16th and 17th century buildings? And there is already a Parliament building; Parliament House, which was the home of the Scottish Parliament before 1707 and is now home to the Scottish judiciary and Court of Session. I honestly fail to see why they couldn't just fit up a chamber inside there with a minimum of expense.

It's a horrible shithole no one would disagree.

Parliament House is used at present, mostly by the faculty of advocates. They wouldn't be too happy about getting moved and land opposite the High Court isn't exactly abundant... or cheap.

The real alternative was New Parliament House on Calton Hill. It was kitted out in anticipation of devolution in the 70s, but never used. It's a fantastic classical building and in a proud position. The official reason for not using it was that it didn't have the office space: but that could easily have been provided nearby. The unofficial reason put forward by Donald Dewar was that it was a 'Nationalist Shibboleth' - an opinion I don't share.

Woodsy

How about a totally independent Scotland?

*Vomit*

west lothian question

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