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Reply 1580
Original post by Drewski
That's how it should be, otherwise why call it the "Champions' League"? Less than 25% of entrants are actually the winners of their leagues. How can the 4th placed team in England be called Champions?


By beating other Champions? I mean if a team beats Barcelona then even if they didn't win the domestic title, they deserve to be called 'Champions'.

Original post by SciFiBoy
no, as the two competitions take place at the same time that wouldn't really work, the system atm is okay I guess for that.

my point is that whilst it is definitely a big achievement to win the champions league, if you also only come 5th in your domestic league, it's papering over some pretty big holes at the same time and you can hardly claim to be the "best in Europe" if their are 4 teams who came above you in your own league...


The point I just made to Drew applies here.

Original post by TheMagicRat
Yes. Let's go back to those days or, at least, only have two teams from a country in it. We certainly shouldn't have four.


Well the way the co-efficients have worked out. This season we have 3 automatic UCL spots instead of 2 automatic.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Drewski
Nope. I follow football. I support England. I abhore hyperbole from any supporter.


one of the nice things about being a United fan is that I rarely if ever have need for hyperbole :awesome:
Original post by *Bubble*
That's an ideal.. We are born equal in terms of people, obviously. But in terms of our place, or future place within society, we are not born equal...Whether your parents are wealthy, what school they put you in ect... Obviously there are still choices you can make, but some environments make choices far easier than others. I'm pretty sure many statistics could back this up?

Yes we are. My parents are wealthy and I haven't had any advantages... well in the UK anyway, in France I do tend to be with the elite :colone:

Yeah rougher environments make you want to succeed more so you make decisions that are generally more beneficial.
Original post by Stray_talk
Sorry to let you down, Bubz. :console:
As I tell my class, mistakes are absolutely ok, it's how you learn best!


Haha you have broken the teacher myth!:frown:
I was taught mistakes are bad... I never got to my time tables, always skilfully avoided though :tongue:
Original post by Spontogical
Neutrals have always been the best. Look at things objectively etc.

In terms of England now.. do you think you need a British manager, in particular Harry Redknapp?


Well, an English manager has certain advantages. Communication for one.
Our national team is at it's best playing with speed and effort. That requires passion. You're not going to get that from a mercenary. Bring in an Englishman who can organise a team and get them fired up*. Redknapp, possibly. Allardyce as an outside. Could just leave Pearce in place, he knows the guys and will put the younger players forward.





*because everything else has failed
When I first heard about the Champions League when I were 6 or so.. I thought it meant that the #1 Club from each European Country would play against eachother.
Original post by *Bubble*
I totally agree about hope.. The thing is one has to be very careful, not to have ideological views which in practice would be detrimental..
If you look at Cuba, it seemed a great idea, but why do so many Cubans criticise their society so harshly and are desperate to get out of Cuba.. I think it's so complex to find the right ways to make our society as fair and equal as it could be, which in effect ends up being positive for all :frown:


I don't quite understand the concept of Socialism too well. Is it just about spreading wealth around? As in, everybody in society earning the exact same amount, even though they're doing completely different jobs that focus on supply and demand?
Original post by tehFrance
Yes we are. My parents are wealthy and I haven't had any advantages... well in the UK anyway, in France I do tend to be with the elite :colone:

Yeah rougher environments make you want to succeed more so you make decisions that are generally more beneficial.


I think sometimes one has advantages without even being aware of them, because you don't know anything else... You have just said in France you were with the elite... So within that society you do..

That's so right about motivation and everything, but in the end I still think it must be much harder. We don't all start equal... Yet we should. Inheritance being abolished, would perhaps be a first way?
Original post by Deyesy
By beating other Champions? I mean if a team beats Barcelona then even if they didn't win the domestic title, they deserve to be called 'Champions'.


This is football. Not boxing.

Basic requirement for qualification to the "Champions' League"; winning either the league or the cup of your country. That's it. If the same team wins both, then that country gets one entrant because noone else was good enough.
Original post by *Bubble*
Haha you have broken the teacher myth!:frown:
I was taught mistakes are bad... I never got to my time tables, always skilfully avoided though :tongue:


Mistakes are totally, as long as you take something from them. :yes:
Original post by *Bubble*
Inheritance being abolished, would perhaps be a first way?

WTF, no. If that happened I'd be ****ing poor, yes I make my own money but nowhere near as much as I can once I take over my fathers business when he decides to either retire or if he suddenly passes away.
Original post by Drewski
Well, an English manager has certain advantages. Communication for one.
Our national team is at it's best playing with speed and effort. That requires passion. You're not going to get that from a mercenary. Bring in an Englishman who can organise a team and get them fired up*. Redknapp, possibly. Allardyce as an outside. Could just leave Pearce in place, he knows the guys and will put the younger players forward.





*because everything else has failed


I think England's biggest reason for failure is their lack of a plan B. I mean, I watch relatively all your games; but the style of play is one-dimensional.

You've probably heard this many times from other people but, I think you're team is only lacking in 'skill' and 'tricks'. If they had them, you'd be up there with Spain and Brazil etc etc.
Reply 1592
Original post by Drewski
This football. Not boxing.

Basic requirement for qualification to the "Champions' League"; winning either the league or the cup of your country. That's it. If the same team wins both, then that country gets one entrant because noone else was good enough.


It's impossible to argue against logic :tongue:

Right, just to make sure I've understood what you've said about 'cup if your country'? Would we be entered into the UCL for winning the League Cup under what you've just said or would it only be the the FA Cup?
Original post by Spontogical
I don't quite understand the concept of Socialism too well. Is it just about spreading wealth around? As in, everybody in society earning the exact same amount, even though they're doing completely different jobs that focus on supply and demand?


I'm not too sure either Spongey... :smile:I think it the concept stands for greater equality, a more 'welfare state', perhaps taxing the rich more, higher minimum wage.. Any way that can achieve more fairness, and less of a gap between the rich and the poor.
Everyone earning the same amount I think is considered as communism..
Original post by *Bubble*
I totally agree about hope.. The thing is one has to be very careful, not to have ideological views which in practice would be detrimental..
If you look at Cuba, it seemed a great idea, but why do so many Cubans criticise their society so harshly and are desperate to get out of Cuba.. I think it's so complex to find the right ways to make our society as fair and equal as it could be, which in effect ends up being positive for all :frown:


very true, though a lot of those seem to stem from a kinda "top-down" style of "socialism" rather than what socialism is actually about, which is democracy and empowering all people in society equally, not just a new elite who become the new ruling class...

to be fair to Cuba, some of their issues are caused by US embargo's as much as anything, certainly they aren't a poster regime for anything, but I don't know is fair to entirely blame that.

it is complex, I mean their is literally tones of writing's and ideas out their about it, I have read some, but im not exactly a heavy reader, and tbh most people who obsessively read political theory are insanely out of touch politically both on the left and on the right. I tend to listen to ideas where I come across them or have them and decide for myself if I think they are good/can work positively. :smile:
Original post by Spontogical
I think England's biggest reason for failure is their lack of a plan B. I mean, I watch relatively all your games; but the style of play is one-dimensional.

You've probably heard this many times from other people but, I think you're team is only lacking in 'skill' and 'tricks'. If they had them, you'd be up there with Spain and Brazil etc etc.


I don't think the team lacks skill. Man for man we've got players as capable as most other nations [bar the freaks like C. Ronaldo and Messi] and reasonable strength in depth, it's just getting the consistency, the belief and the system right to play them all the best way.
Original post by *Bubble*
We don't all start equal... Yet we should. Inheritance being abolished, would perhaps be a first way?


Hmm I don't think that would be a good idea. There are so many ways it can be exploited. It's a natural human trait to want the best possible start for your children is it not?
Original post by Stray_talk
Mistakes are totally, as long as you take something from them. :yes:


What if you don't want to learn from them :cry:
Original post by tehFrance
WTF, no. If that happened I'd be ****ing poor, yes I make my own money but nowhere near as much as I can once I take over my fathers business when he decides to either retire or if he suddenly passes away.


Well there you go... So you seem to acknowledge and want to keep your priveledge...
I think one has to try to always imagine how one would feel being born on the least favorable side, however difficult that may be...
Original post by Deyesy
Well the way the co-efficients have worked out. This season we have 3 automatic UCL spots instead of 2 automatic.


And Italy I think has been reduced from 4 to 3, whilst Germany has gone up to 4.

People have told me in the past that it wouldn't work because then you'd end up with the champions of Macedonia, or somewhere like that, in the group stages but I don't see a problem with that. The group stages are pretty predictable as it is and I'm all for seeing new teams having a chance. APOEL have also proven that the small teams can do something.

Less teams qualifying for the CL would mean that the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea would be in the Europa League from the start which I think would help that competition, especially since it's becoming less relevant by the year.
Original post by *Bubble*
I'm not too sure either Spongey... :smile:I think it the concept stands for greater equality, a more 'welfare state', perhaps taxing the rich more, higher minimum wage.. Any way that can achieve more fairness, and less of a gap between the rich and the poor.
Everyone earning the same amount I think is considered as communism..


Hmm.. I can see where you're coming from - but isn't the rich already being taxed to hell and back. It almost feels like they're being 'punished' for reaching to the top as it is.

It's very hard to think of a system that will work better than Capitalism at the moment tbh. Sad, but true.

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