There is no such thing as free will.

Is this not just some form of determinism? It's not new.

I agree to an extent, but people can certainly learn to control their actions. There is no reason why a fat person cannot develop the willpower to reject that donut and have a salad instead. It's not like they have no choice whatsoever.

You are correct insofar as there is no free will. I do not know if you are familiar with the works of the American neuroscientist Sam Harris? His blog posts and short book are most enlightening. I personally think that punishment is inherently immoral due to the deterministic/stochastic nature of consciousness, and therefore rehabilitation is the only possible option...

Thank you for raising the subject.

Yeah, but I'm curious as to how this could be wrong.



How could they learn to control their actions? Remember their actions are written in their DNA, can they change that? If someone has "learnt to control their actions" then it was decided by their genes that they would learn to control them, the person themself is not independently doing it.

I personally think that punishment is inherently immoral due to the deterministic/stochastic nature of consciousness, and therefore rehabilitation is the only possible option...

Thank you for raising the subject.

Let's say I am a fat person who loves food, and finds it very difficult to stop eating.

I could either completely disregard my health and just eat without any thought of the consequences, or I could try my absolute best to limit my eating. In reality people will choose an option somewhere in between those two. People have a conscious choice about how hard they will try to achieve what they want. If someone goes to weight watchers and pays for personal trainers etc. then they will learn to limit their eating. That isn't in their DNA is it?

You have to consider that if we operate on the premise that we want to minimize suffering, then some form of punishment may be necessary to deter crime. A lack of societal punishment may become another environmental factor that leads to more crime, even if criminals have no free will.

Although, I agree we need to punish people a whole lot less, and rehabilitate a whole lot more.

Let's say I am a fat person who loves food, and finds it very difficult to stop eating.

I could either completely disregard my health and just eat without any thought of the consequences, or I could try my absolute best to limit my eating. In reality people will choose an option somewhere in between those two. People have a conscious choice about how hard they will try to achieve what they want. If someone goes to weight watchers and pays for personal trainers etc. then they will learn to limit their eating. That isn't in their DNA is it?

I don't agree completely but I see where you're coming from and agree to an extent...my only real issue being your suggestion that paedophilia is in someones DNA. I don't believe that in any way, shape or form. I don't think someone is born a paedophile; paedophilia, in my opinion, is attributed to certain risk factors, like childhood trauma and serious mental illness, as opposed to someones DNA. I don't think someone is born with 'fat genes' either- obviously if they have, for example, an under-active thyroid, or other solid medical reason, then that's different but I don't think people are born with genes that make them want to binge eat.

I do agree that people don't have free will and are products of their experiences. All decisions we make, no matter how small, are influenced by other factors so I personally don't think we can call them autonomous decisions- which is why I don't think we have free will.

To be honest, I think trying to blame being fat (without a medical reason) on DNA is serious denial, same as blaming paedophilia on DNA. I'm talking from experience here of the first one (fortunately I'm not a paedophile!) as I used to be fat. No, it's not because my DNA stopped me having willpower or made me want to eat tons...it's because food gave me mini orgasms and I couldn't get enough of that chocolate cake . I'm not fat anymore and it obviously wasn't in my DNA.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is (sorry, I'm drinking whisky from a children's tipee cup whilst trying to maintain my train of thought) I don't think anyone has free will in any decision, all decisions have influencing factors, but I think blaming issues on genetics is a serious case of denial in most peoples cases.

After seeing this thread

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1992649&highlight=obesity+and+depression

about why morbidly obese people are blamed for their condition unlike those suffering from depression I became rather frustrated at how ignorant so many people are about this.

I have heard people say things like how "paedophiles shouldn't be blamed for being attracted to children, however they are able to control how they act upon their impulses" but the truth is they can't. Just as those who are obese do not have willpower and have no more control over their condition than those suffering from mental illnesses do.

The truth is that we are a product of our experiences and our genetics. When we make a decision you need to think about what is actually happening. Our brain is producing hormones and chemicals which decide how we react to every situation, and the chemicals produced are based on our DNA and our environment. Humans have something called an epigenome which can change the structure of chromatin and the function of the genome, and unlike the genome the epigenome is affected by environmental factors. How could we possibly have any control over our environment or DNA??

This means that when an obese person is deciding whether they should have that donut, they cannot use their willpower to stop themselves if it is inherent in their genes and their epigenome to tell the brain to produce chemicals to make the decision to eat that donut. Many people of a healthy size look down on those with weight problems and say "I disciplined myself and refrained from letting myself get fat because I used my willpower", as if everyone else could have done the same, but no, they were just unlucky enough to inherit those genes and have the epigenome which told their brain to produce those chemicals to make the decision to eat all those fatty foods.

The argument here can be applied to many other situations like paedophilia as I mentioned earlier. (However, although I believe that paedophiles do not have control over their actions they should still be sent to prison for any crimes they commit against children to protect others, since it is written in the DNA and likely for them to offend again)

This is exactly the same as how if someone is suffering from a mental illness e.g. depression, their brain produces those chemicals which cause the illness.

This is what I am almost certain is true and other people need to realise this is the case. I would be interested if anyone could inform me of any flaws in my theory.

Edit: I just remembered watching a documentary about a boy with autism and it made me think about how people's behaviour is often excused if it can be blamed on a disorder and if it has a name. So for example this boy said things which may have offended people because he found it hard to read their emotions and empathise with them, and he found it hard to integrate in social situations. Of course he should not be blamed for his behaviour, but what annoys me is how if someone has not been diagnosed with a mental disability then they are blamed for their behaviour as if they can control it e.g. if someone has not been diagnosed with autism but they find it hard to interact with other people then they are blamed for not making an effort to be sociable, if other people can do it then why can't they etc. but no, they do not have any more control over it. It is inherent in their genes and epigenome, despite there not being a name for their behaviour such as aspergers. There are many similar examples.

There is no free will, you are correct. You are making a large logical leap to saying people should not be blamed for being fat. A fat person is more likely to want to become skinny because their surroundings react adversly to them being fat. If society looks down on them, they are more likely to want to better themselves in the first place, they are more aware of the fact that what they are is incorrectly proportioned. Just because it is a deterministic fact, doesn't abosolve responsibility. Its just our responsibility as a society to dish out the correct motivation and surroundings for them to be fixed.

It's not just a factor of genetics.

All past actions affect current and future actions. There is IMO very little that depends on free choice. I do believe that choice exists, but it's not as free as most would like to think.

So are you saying both society and fat people are both to blame for them being fat?

If we have no free will society cannot control how they act towards others, and fat people can't control how they react towards their surrounding.