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Queen Meets Ex- IRA Commander

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Got a question about Student Finance? Ask the experts this week on TSR! 14-09-2014
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    (Original post by nmccann)
    Its a dubious statement to say the military weren't actively targeting civilians. They colluded with loyalist paramilitaries, who murdered civilians.
    "The military" did not, individuals within it did. Which is hardly surprising given the militarisation of Northern Irish society: if you put a thousand Protestant Ulstermen in a room in the 1970s, chances are at least some of them will sympathise with Loyalist paramilitaries. Either way, this was not the military calling the shots. Collusion was never ordered by the MOD.

    Above all, these attempts to compare the legitimate forces of a sovereign state with a terrorist organisation just look silly. We all know fine well the difference between the forces of law and order and those who sought to usurp such principles.

    (Original post by nmccann)
    In reference to Ulster a third of the counties of Ulster are in the South where as 6 remain occupied.
    There's no way on earth that anyone here is going to accept that sort of pseudo-legal IRA logic. Politics like that have no place within a modern Ireland.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    "The military" did not, individuals within it did. Which is hardly surprising given the militarisation of Northern Irish society: if you put a thousand Protestant Ulstermen in a room in the 1970s, chances are at least some of them will sympathise with Loyalist paramilitaries. Either way, this was not the military calling the shots. Collusion was never ordered by the MOD.

    Above all, these attempts to compare the legitimate forces of a sovereign state with a terrorist organisation just look silly. We all know fine well the difference between the forces of law and order and those who sought to usurp such principles.



    There's no way on earth that anyone here is going to accept that sort of pseudo-legal IRA logic. Politics like that have no place within a modern Ireland.


    There are 9 counties in Ulster - which is fact not logic. 6 out of the 9 counties were deliberately carved out to create a unionist majority, also known as gerry-mandering. FACT not logic.

    Your ignorance completely blinds of the realities which happened here. Catholics were getting burned out of their homes, could not vote, gain jobs , gain housing due to a completely discriminative protestant society and government so it was inevitable that armed action would ensue. The British government did close to nothing to eradicate this and as a result the Provisional and Official were established . I do not support these organisations yet it cannot be denied if it were not for armed struggle, catholics would still be living in the same conditions. Therefore there was a reason for violence, it was not endless thuggery.

    Collusion may have never been ordered by the MOD yet they and the British Gvt were certainly involved in the cover ups of the collusion therefore they have to take responsibility.
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    @lib
    Collusion was 100% real. It was ordered at the very highest levels of the British government.
    You seem very adamant that the Brit army where innocent. What, did you have family members in it, or are you in it?
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    (Original post by Fusion)
    Belfast was the most violent city in Europe in the 1970's now it's one of the safest. This is due in part to bringing the republicans into decision making. Blair/New Labour deserve a lot of credit for this.
    For white people, maybe.
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    (Original post by Aaron_xyz)
    For white people, maybe.
    What is that meant to mean?
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    (Original post by IRSP044)
    What is that meant to mean?
    Attacks and violence against non-whites is significantly higher.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8104978.stm
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/ja...rnireland.race
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/feb/11/uk.race
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/7043/

    "Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors."

    I also have personal experience, having stayed in N.Ireland for two days I was treated like **** by restaurants, being seated far away from the other clientele, having racial epiphets yelled at me on the street, being chased by a gang of thugs with knives (which yes I did report to the Belfast police, although they did nothing), people mocking me during the Orange parade by pulling their eyes back, threatening to kill me if I don't leave their country etc. Just a street away from the hostel I was staying at I saw grafitti like "South Belfast supports BNP". I was so scared leaving the hostel that I had to ask the S. African tour guide to drive me to the station.
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    (Original post by Aaron_xyz)
    Attacks and violence against non-whites is significantly higher.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8104978.stm
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/ja...rnireland.race
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/feb/11/uk.race
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/7043/

    "Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors."

    I also have personal experience, having stayed in N.Ireland for two days I was treated like **** by restaurants, being seated far away from the other clientele, having racial epiphets yelled at me on the street, being chased by a gang of thugs with knives (which yes I did report to the Belfast police, although they did nothing), people mocking me during the Orange parade by pulling their eyes back, threatening to kill me if I don't leave their country etc. Just a street away from the hostel I was staying at I saw grafitti like "South Belfast supports BNP". I was so scared leaving the hostel that I had to ask the S. African tour guide to drive me to the station.

    I stayed there! Red terraced hostel in the uni district, forget the name.

    Never saw so much as a shoplift during my stay in Belfast.
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    (Original post by Fusion)
    I stayed there! Red terraced hostel in the uni district, forget the name.
    Paddy's Palace?
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    (Original post by Aaron_xyz)
    Paddy's Palace?
    No it was a different one.
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    (Original post by Aaron_xyz)
    Attacks and violence against non-whites is significantly higher.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8104978.stm
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/ja...rnireland.race
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/feb/11/uk.race
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/7043/

    "Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors."

    I also have personal experience, having stayed in N.Ireland for two days I was treated like **** by restaurants, being seated far away from the other clientele, having racial epiphets yelled at me on the street, being chased by a gang of thugs with knives (which yes I did report to the Belfast police, although they did nothing), people mocking me during the Orange parade by pulling their eyes back, threatening to kill me if I don't leave their country etc.
    Unfortunetally these thing do happen. However they are not as frequent as the news would suggest. The news also fails the mention that these incidents are nearly always in loyalist areas. Loyalist groups are known to have links to Nazis like C-18 and where behind many of these attacks that you posted.

    If you are still in NI or are coming back I would suggest that you live in a republican area. Republican groups have actively opposed racism across Ireland. If you have any Problems with racism you should contact the IRSP and you will get our full support. It is the same with all republican groups.

    Unfortunatelly most ethnic minorities go to loyalist areas because of the large amount of vacant properties there.
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    (Original post by nmccann)
    There are 9 counties in Ulster - which is fact not logic. 6 out of the 9 counties were deliberately carved out to create a unionist majority, also known as gerry-mandering. FACT not logic.
    If that's the case, then every border in the world is gerrymandered. Why does Germany not include France? Because the majority of French people don't want to be part of Germany.

    I completely agree Northern Ireland was formed to best maintain a unionist majority, and I fully support that.

    Your ignorance completely blinds of the realities which happened here. Catholics were getting burned out of their homes, could not vote, gain jobs , gain housing due to a completely discriminative protestant society and government so it was inevitable that armed action would ensue.
    They certainly could vote. Discrimination in jobs happened across many minority groups throughout the UK and Ireland in those days - only one such group started murdering people over it. Why? Because it had nothing to do with discrimination, but rather nationalism.

    The British government did close to nothing to eradicate this and as a result the Provisional and Official were established . I do not support these organisations
    Funny how you then accept the anti-democratic pseudo-legal arguments which hinge on support for such paramilitary organisations. There is no other rational argument for considering Northern Ireland 'occupied'. In fact, even if you do accept the official IRA line, calling it 'occupied' is utterly ignorant: an incorporated territory cannot by definition be occupied.

    yet it cannot be denied if it were not for armed struggle, catholics would still be living in the same conditions.
    I find that suggestion utterly laughable.
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    (Original post by IRSP044)
    @lib
    Collusion was 100% real. It was ordered at the very highest levels of the British government.
    Something you have no evidence to support.

    You seem very adamant that the Brit army where innocent. What, did you have family members in it, or are you in it?
    Of course I have had family members in it - I think you'd struggle to find a Scotsman who didn't have family members in the British Army at some point. I could name you some that fought - on both sides - at Culloden, or those who fought on the Royalist side against Cromwell, or both of the World Wars.

    I was in my university OTC for a while, so in theory I was a soldier in HM Armed Forces. Unsurprisingly, it was more about cheap pints than defending the realm.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Something you have no evidence to support.



    Of course I have had family members in it - I think you'd struggle to find a Scotsman who didn't have family members in the British Army at some point. I could name you some that fought - on both sides - at Culloden, or those who fought on the Royalist side against Cromwell, or both of the World Wars.

    I was in my university OTC for a while, so in theory I was a soldier in HM Armed Forces. Unsurprisingly, it was more about cheap pints than defending the realm.
    Uncoils pull up many accounts from various sources supporting the collusion claim. However I am too lazy. Plus I don't see the point in it anyway as the chances are you won't be swayed anyway.

    Did they serve in Ireland or was it somewhere else that they went to murder and plunder on orders from auld lizzie?
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    (Original post by Tahooper)
    No sympathy for these right-wing terrorists, they should have been killed when we had the chance.
    They are left wing.
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    (Original post by Tahooper)
    No sympathy for these right-wing terrorists, they should have been killed when we had the chance.
    What would killing them achieve? Nothing it would actually make more people want to join the 'Cause'.
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    (Original post by nmccann)
    Thy are left wing.
    Ultra-nationalism, patriotism, killing civilians and political opponents - hardly lefties are they?
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    So, your response to innocent deaths on the Republican side:
    (Original post by IRSP044)
    IMO I would like to see criminal convictions against all those involved in the planning, fascilitating and carrying out of state orchestrated murder. That includes politicians, spooks, soldiers, cops and loyalists!
    Your response to innocent deaths on the Loyalist side:
    There should be no investigation into their deaths.
    Your response to the question of the worst racism anywhere in the country:
    (Original post by IRSP044)
    Unfortunetally these thing do happen.
    You and your people are the cause of, not the solution to, the violence.

    Show me one example, just one, anywhere in history, where a successful peace has been achieved by imposing revenge and the demands of only one side and I'll show you a dozen where it has been achieved purely by concessions and compromise. One example; that's all I ask.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    If that's the case, then every border in the world is gerrymandered. Why does Germany not include France? Because the majority of French people don't want to be part of Germany.

    I completely agree Northern Ireland was formed to best maintain a unionist majority, and I fully support that.



    They certainly could vote. Discrimination in jobs happened across many minority groups throughout the UK and Ireland in those days - only one such group started murdering people over it. Why? Because it had nothing to do with discrimination, but rather nationalism.



    Funny how you then accept the anti-democratic pseudo-legal arguments which hinge on support for such paramilitary organisations. There is no other rational argument for considering Northern Ireland 'occupied'. In fact, even if you do accept the official IRA line, calling it 'occupied' is utterly ignorant: an incorporated territory cannot by definition be occupied.



    I find that suggestion utterly laughable.

    What I find utterly laughable is your conservative views on this , and they have absolutely no support here as seen in their complete lack of any representatives in local government. Of course the violence was necessary , otherwise we would still be suffering from the same conditions, if there was no resistance, why else would the sectarian government change?

    NI government deliberately changed the system from proportional representation from to first past the post making it impossible for Catholics to gain seats, especially seen in Derry which is overwhelmingly catholic yet the city council was completely unionist so Gerrymandering was a much greater problem then your niche "Germany France border " example implies

    It was inevitable that violence would ensue and it was about civil rights not "nationalism". Research Ivan Cooper, a protestant man protesting about the discrimination against catholics.
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    (Original post by Tahooper)
    Ultra-nationalism, patriotism, killing civilians and political opponents - hardly lefties are they?
    Killing Civilians? - Loyalist death squads and British Army - something your "heroes" continue to do today.

    Loyalists death squads had no legitimate political agenda.

    Sinn Fein are left wing and were the political wing of the IRA.
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    (Original post by kingsholmmad)
    So, your response to innocent deaths on the Republican side:


    Your response to innocent deaths on the Loyalist side:


    Your response to the question of the worst racism anywhere in the country:


    You and your people are the cause of, not the solution to, the violence.

    Show me one example, just one, anywhere in history, where a successful peace has been achieved by imposing revenge and the demands of only one side and I'll show you a dozen where it has been achieved purely by concessions and compromise. One example; that's all I ask.
    Don't try too twist my words. You know I mean the UVF, UDA etc when said loyalists.

    And I assume you read my full response to racism!

    It's not about revenge it's about justice!

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