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WW2 bomber memorial unveiled amidst controversy. What do you think?




The work of the bombers after the war was a sensitive topic following the high civilian casualty rates in Berlin. "There were no campaign medals specifically for Bomber Command after the war and no mention of it in Prime Minister Winston Churchill's victory speech and was criticised by some for raids on Dresden in the closing months of the war, causing fire-storms which killed about 25,000 civilians in the destruction of the city centre".


So the question that has dogged campaigners for years has been: should there be a memorial to commemorate the 'efforts' and sacrifice these men made for their nation like there are for other branches of the military? After a long wait, the Queen today finally unveiled the answer; yes, they should.


Unsurprisingly, there has been some discourse about this. The overwhelming opinion of the British public (at least the commentators on the BBC website) was that these airmen do deserve it for their bravery and sacrifice. It's fair to say they've chosen to adopt the simple answer, but is it the right one?


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Follow up


"I suppose it is clear the aiming points will be the built up areas, and not, for instance, the dockyards or aircraft factories where these are mentioned in Appendix A. This must be made quite clear if it is not already understood."
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Reply 1
Of course they should be honoured the bombing of civillian cities was a key point to winning the war it helped starve the Germans into surrender. The german people choose their path when they elected Adolf Hitler and started slaughtering million of their own people and invading other countries. Hitler wasn't some dictator who forced himself upon the German people he was elected by them that means the majority of Germans supported him and the Nazi's and as such they had to live with the consequences who cares if they died maybe if they didn't start trying to kill everyone else in Europe then they wouldn't have died. Yes some Germans who didn't support Hitler might have died but it's war and innocent casulties come side by side with war unfortunetley.

The victors write the history books and we were the victors (along with Russia and America of course) and as such we should write History and be able to honour the people who helped win the war without giving into retard liberal handwringers who love to selth loathe.
This. Moral culpability, and also the question of whether the tactic was right or wrong, lies more with the people who designed and decided to carry out the strategy than those who actually went and did it - soldiers dont pick their enemy, neither do they pick how they are being told to beat them, all they have to do is follow the orders through.

Of course there may well have been an aspect of hatred/revenge amongst the pilots and bombers at the time, but I view that as a natural reaction really when fighting an enemy that had done exactly the same to Britain earlier on in the war, and was also responsible for the death of many civilians and so on also.

In the event though, the tactic of mass civilian bombing of Germany didn't work, as like in the British blitz, it didn't break the morale of the population. I can't remember where I read it also, but it didn't actually reduce industrial output either... again I can't remember where I read/heard it, but I remember seeing once that Albert Spier actually managed to increase industrial output despite the bombing - although of course I may be wrong.

Tactics and moral issues aside also, the attrition rate for the bomber pilots was also very high - to quote the BBC TV article on it the other day, less than half made it back. Such sacrifice, even if it came with questionable morals, deserves remembrance in my opinion.
Reply 3
Original post by Meus
WW2 bomber memorial unveiled amidst controversy. What do you think?

I think that they were doing their patriotic duty to help defeat the evil war machine that was Nazi Germany and thus they should be honoured albeit lately as it should of been done a long time ago.
Maybe I would be angry had there not been any Blitz and bombings here. However, I think their safety was the responsibility of the German government. Didn't even bother to evacuate the cities after the first night so just shows what a c**t Hitler was for dragging his people into a war and then dumping them when they needed him the most.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 5
While this memorial is tentatively aimed at the 55,573 men of Bomber Command who never returned from their missions, permanent mention is made on the memorial to all who lost their lives, be they British, Commonwealth, French, German, Italian or Japanese. Servicemen and citizenry alike.

It is not triumphant. It does not glorify. It remembers. And hopefully makes sure we never forget.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 6
The Bomber Crews who gave their lives to crush the Nazi Beast were not much older than you
Reply 7
Original post by the bear
The Bomber Crews who gave their lives to crush the Nazi Beast were not much older than you


OP has their age listed as 25.

Average age of a bomber crew was 22.
(edited 11 years ago)
My Grandad served in Bomber Command, although he's not here today he'd be glad to see their sacrifices being recognised :smile:
Anyone who is against this memorial are spineless cowards and we should be glad these same people were never in power in WW2.

We would be speaking German if it wasn't for those who stood up to the Nazis.

Yes they bombed civilians en-masse, you try and make a decision when you're 1 against many, on your own and you are fearing an invasion.

Your very existence is at stake and you're worried about casualties? I guarantee the same spineless cowards who are against this memorial would be the first to scream "SAVE US BOMBER COMMAND!"

:lol:
Reply 10
Nothing controversial about this.

It was the Germans who originally altered their tactics and began bombing civilian populations in the UK. The Brits merely responded in kind.

Really - how can the Germans complain about civilian casualties caused by allied bombing when it was Germany and their nutcase leaders that caused the deaths of 50 million people in WWII?

No apologies needed. I think the memorial should be bigger and bolder.
Reply 11
Yes, it's good that they finally have a memorial.
Reply 12
Original post by Howard
Nothing controversial about this.

It was the Germans who originally altered their tactics and began bombing civilian populations in the UK. The Brits merely responded in kind.

Really - how can the Germans complain about civilian casualties caused by allied bombing when it was Germany and their nutcase leaders that caused the deaths of 50 million people in WWII?

No apologies needed. I think the memorial should be bigger and bolder.


Just playing devils advocate here but i swear it wasnt as such a change in bombing tactics it was an accident which the British didnt take to kindly to and it just snow balled from there?
Reply 13
Anything with regard to WW2 and its air wars always tend to idolize the Spitfire pilots and those who took part in the Battle of Britain, it's high time the bombers, the reconnaissance and also the workmen who built the planes get the recognition they deserved.

It should also be remembered the allied bombers who lost their life, plenty of American bombers also lost their life in Europe.

But above all, there should be a memorial for ALL who lost their life regardless of what they did or whose side they were on.
Original post by cl_steele
Just playing devils advocate here but i swear it wasnt as such a change in bombing tactics it was an accident which the British didnt take to kindly to and it just snow balled from there?



The Germans first went for the airfields, but when that wasn't working for Hitler he switched to cities + civillians
Original post by Shabalala
Of course they should be honoured the bombing of civillian cities was a key point to winning the war it helped starve the Germans into surrender. The german people choose their path when they elected Adolf Hitler and started slaughtering million of their own people and invading other countries. Hitler wasn't some dictator who forced himself upon the German people he was elected by them that means the majority of Germans supported him and the Nazi's and as such they had to live with the consequences who cares if they died maybe if they didn't start trying to kill everyone else in Europe then they wouldn't have died. Yes some Germans who didn't support Hitler might have died but it's war and innocent casulties come side by side with war unfortunetley.

The victors write the history books and we were the victors (along with Russia and America of course) and as such we should write History and be able to honour the people who helped win the war without giving into retard liberal handwringers who love to selth loathe.


I may only be a simple History student going into my final year but I'm pretty confident at no point did the Germans surrender until long after their defeat was basically forced.

Also the bombing campaign was a waste of resources.

It obviously didn't stop German war production, neither did it force the Germans to surrender (like the Brits). It's actually amazing how making the war personal and attacking the people themselves strengthens a peoples resolve and support for their armed forces, I know if I was German I'd support the German Wermacht if the allies had basically made constant statements claiming I despite being a civilian was a mortal enemy worthy of being killed in my own home.

And that is the problem.

Human lives were wasted for nothing....the bomber crews...the German people's....for nothing.

So while I agree the bomber crews should be remembered, I don't like the style and form the monument has taken, the message behind it is wrong. "I was just following orders" is what the German camp guards said when the Jews were being 'dealt with'.

Hiding behind orders simply doesn't fly in this day and age, the bomber crews know they were killing civilians. Maybe they thought it was a necessary side -effect of going after industrial and military targets, who knows what the average crewman knew or thought.

But the higher ups knew they were bombing out civilians with little military goal. A war crime was committed.

Those responsible are long dead but all the same, some perspective with the memorial would have been nice, I'm really not enjoying the current atmosphere of mindless worship of military institutions and veterans in the UK.

End of the day soldiers do bad things, hopefully to bad people, more often then not just other mere men and women like them, and sometimes to innocent bystanders.

That is what should never be forgotten.
Reply 16
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
Also the bombing campaign was a waste of resources.
But the higher ups knew they were bombing out civilians with little military goal.


That's quite a simplistic way of looking of at things.

A 'waste of resources' and 'little military goal' are quite subjective. I'm fairly confident that the higher ups knew that the 30,000+ troops the Germans used to protect Berlin and other cities would have been causing them pain and damage elsewhere on the front lines had they not been tied up defending their cities. Is it 'little military goal' to cause an inordinate amount of nuisance to your enemy?
Reply 17
Original post by cl_steele
Just playing devils advocate here but i swear it wasnt as such a change in bombing tactics it was an accident which the British didnt take to kindly to and it just snow balled from there?


Yes, that's quite true actually. A couple of stray bombs apparently. (That's their story anyway)

But anyway - tough titties I say. The Germans didn't exactly have much respect for civilian life in WWII - they caused a war that resulted in 50 million deaths - so shouldn't whine about Dresdon being turned into a fireball.
Reply 18
Original post by Studentus-anonymous

Human lives were wasted for nothing....the bomber crews...the German people's....for nothing.


It wasn't for nothing.

It was to stop the scourge of national socialism and to free the people who were already under the nazi jackboot all over Europe.
Reply 19
Original post by Howard
Yes, that's quite true actually. A couple of stray bombs apparently. (That's their story anyway)

But anyway - tough titties I say. The Germans didn't exactly have much respect for civilian life in WWII - they caused a war that resulted in 50 million deaths - so shouldn't whine about Dresdon being turned into a fireball.


mmm true it is a shame though apparently it was a very beautiful city before Bomber Harris turned it into a giant BBQ :rolleyes:
The thing i do find amusing is the little tit for tat the two air forces had going on with the British flattening the city of Lubeck with the Germans in turn whipping out their Baedecker guide book to find some pretty cities to flatten :L

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