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Why is Margaret Thatcher so hated?
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Original post by Nick100
It is inaccurate to say that she destroyed manufacturing: manufacturing output was at a historical high when she left office; it was at its highest ever in 2007. Manufacturing employment did fall, but this isn't as important as total production.
It's also a myth that Thatcher destroyed the coal mining industry; coal production was highest in 1913 and then plateaued for three decades until the end of World War II. Coal production then started to decline following nationalization (although whether or not this is because of nationalization or because coal is a finite resource is debatable) and by the time Thatcher was elected it was already in severe decline even with the industry receiving heavy subsidies.
It's also a myth that Thatcher destroyed the coal mining industry; coal production was highest in 1913 and then plateaued for three decades until the end of World War II. Coal production then started to decline following nationalization (although whether or not this is because of nationalization or because coal is a finite resource is debatable) and by the time Thatcher was elected it was already in severe decline even with the industry receiving heavy subsidies.
This is all true and it's also true that she got a huge bounce from North Sea Oil - the revenues surged up to a peak during her Prime Ministership and that enabled her governments to run a relaxed tax policy at the same time as (despite Labour hype) not cutting back too severely on spending. The current Tory government (aided by their little pocket Clegg) are in a much tougher bind, because they want to satiate the rhetoric for tax-cuts from the right-wing numpties on the back benches whilst not having the North Sea money to anything like the extent Maggie did.
Original post by placebo24
Sure it's all well and good if you're bourgeois. If you're poor as ****, like me for example, or even just not well off, like the most of the population, you're much worse off.
No war but class war.
No war but class war.
Well why don't you do something about it?
Original post by Hackett
Well why don't you do something about it?
I am, it's called activism. However, what you were thinking is a wee bit hard for a 17 year old though, right?
She managed to rub people up the wrong way. Policies enacted by her government changed the lives of many for the worst.
There are many reasons why Thatcher and her Government are hated. The most obvious are:
Even things which were supposed to have been high points for her time in office are not what they seem. Take the Falklands war for example. The Argentinians had been sabre rattling for some time and there was intelligence to suggest that an invasion was imminent.
The previous Labour government had seen this and tackled it head on. Thatcher's government decided to ignore the intelligence, instead the government decided weaken the Navy and publicly discuss giving up the Islands (and showing utter disregard for them and the Islanders). Both steps were foolish, given the intelligence we had as well as the advice from people in the know - such as the First Sea Lord of the time who warned against defence cuts and the message they would send to the Argies.
It should come as little wonder that the Argentinians believed we had little interest in the Islands and invaded. We repelled the attack, but at the cost of many lives. Rather than suffer for her government's incompetence at avoiding this war, Thatcher crudely rode on a wave of public support... if only people had known the truth.
There are many reasons why Thatcher and her Government are hated. The most obvious are:
•
Allowing right to buy,
•
Taking milk away from children (as a minister),
•
Section 28,
•
Her friendship with Pinochet,
•
Destroying localism (such as the GLC, which was abolished against the will of the majority),
•
Allowed the rich to prosper at the expense of the poor,
•
Performed U turns on key policies because of her failures elsewhere,
•
Her willingness to bail on her principles if the price was right,
•
Her war against teachers and social workers,
•
Despite being tough on crime...rates doubled.
Even things which were supposed to have been high points for her time in office are not what they seem. Take the Falklands war for example. The Argentinians had been sabre rattling for some time and there was intelligence to suggest that an invasion was imminent.
The previous Labour government had seen this and tackled it head on. Thatcher's government decided to ignore the intelligence, instead the government decided weaken the Navy and publicly discuss giving up the Islands (and showing utter disregard for them and the Islanders). Both steps were foolish, given the intelligence we had as well as the advice from people in the know - such as the First Sea Lord of the time who warned against defence cuts and the message they would send to the Argies.
It should come as little wonder that the Argentinians believed we had little interest in the Islands and invaded. We repelled the attack, but at the cost of many lives. Rather than suffer for her government's incompetence at avoiding this war, Thatcher crudely rode on a wave of public support... if only people had known the truth.
Original post by InnerTemple
Even things which were supposed to have been high points for her time in office are not what they seem. Take the Falklands war for example. The Argentinians had been sabre rattling for some time and there was intelligence to suggest that an invasion was imminent.
The previous Labour government had seen this and tackled it head on. Thatcher's government decided to ignore the intelligence, instead the government decided weaken the Navy and publicly discuss giving up the Islands (and showing utter disregard for them and the Islanders). Both steps were foolish, given the intelligence we had as well as the advice from people in the know - such as the First Sea Lord of the time who warned against defence cuts and the message they would send to the Argies.
It should come as little wonder that the Argentinians believed we had little interest in the Islands and invaded. We repelled the attack, but at the cost of many lives. Rather than suffer for her government's incompetence at avoiding this war, Thatcher crudely rode on a wave of public support... if only people had known the truth.
Even things which were supposed to have been high points for her time in office are not what they seem. Take the Falklands war for example. The Argentinians had been sabre rattling for some time and there was intelligence to suggest that an invasion was imminent.
The previous Labour government had seen this and tackled it head on. Thatcher's government decided to ignore the intelligence, instead the government decided weaken the Navy and publicly discuss giving up the Islands (and showing utter disregard for them and the Islanders). Both steps were foolish, given the intelligence we had as well as the advice from people in the know - such as the First Sea Lord of the time who warned against defence cuts and the message they would send to the Argies.
It should come as little wonder that the Argentinians believed we had little interest in the Islands and invaded. We repelled the attack, but at the cost of many lives. Rather than suffer for her government's incompetence at avoiding this war, Thatcher crudely rode on a wave of public support... if only people had known the truth.
I think this is a very good example of how even individual aspects of Thatcher's time as PM can be immensely divisive. I know people of my grandparents' generation who just view Thatcher with absolute respect and adoration because of what they perceived her as doing over the Falklands War. It's important to emphasise that there aren't just excessively negative opinions of Thatcher, there are also excessively (and perhaps, as you indicated, incorrectly) positive opinions of her too. She was a politician who changed things dramatically - ergo, opinions about her will tend to be dramatic in one direction or the other.
Also, if anyone is still watching this thread, a pertinent article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/not-all-socialists-want-to-dance-on-margaret-thatchers-grave-i-want-her-to-go-on-and-on-8143089.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/not-all-socialists-want-to-dance-on-margaret-thatchers-grave-i-want-her-to-go-on-and-on-8143089.html
I first arrived in Britain in 1988, I never thought I was in a bad country at the time even as a 12 year old. The only thing I do remember a lot from that time were trains were always delayed or cancelled, traffic jams were the norm even in a place like Winchester. I doubt we could say for certain whether she was a good or bad PM, but looking at the issue with hindsight which was something she didn't have at the time we can deduce she had great ideas and policies to deal with issues of the 70s and 80s but many of them were done on the cheap due to lack of funds or done for cost control reasons, this essentially meant many of her policies while good in principle it all went wrong when it came to implementation and the devil is always in the details which unfortunately at the time there wasn't time to think of thus many of the good policies appear either to be bulldozed through or were simply half baked pies.
The common issues people tend to dislike her over :-
I) Closure of mines. Yes it indeed wreaked havoc in many communities but we have to remember most of these were uncompetitive and largely were a bastion of unionism. In a way she just gave it a direct shot in the head rather than letting it die slowly as much of them their closure was almost inevitable.
Ii) Controlling the unions. She went into office on such a manifesto and that was what the British public wanted, this also included many of the working classes who simply were sink and tired of industrial actions in the 1970s, since strikes meant no income. It isn't surprising then that she pursued and curtailed the unions with such vigour.
Iii) Right to buy, contrary to popular misconception this policy was a common policy long before she came to power. If you had studied the history of public housing when they first started these homes were respectable places to live until successive governments messed about with the eligibility for tenancy that essentially turned many of them into ghettos or near slum like conditions. Selling them off was the correct policy and approach as Britain as a whole had a long standing tradition of home ownership, much of these policies with regard to social housing was modeled from policies found in Singapore, the problem again came from poor implementation and management.
Iv) Milk snatching, it is unlikely anyone on here were ever affected by this policy, either way it wasn't from her time as PM, again this seems more of a hatred that she attempted a reform that attempted to prevent wastage that didn't go down well.
V) Closure of industries. A tough decision indeed, but again like the mines many of them were simply beyond repair or needed lots of money to save and it was money the public purse simply didn't have at that time. We can't say it was a bad decision many of them had been in steep decline due to poor labour practices and abysmal management.
Overall, I think she was the right person to be in office at that time and there isn't any guarantees that if it was someone else things could had been less difficult.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The common issues people tend to dislike her over :-
I) Closure of mines. Yes it indeed wreaked havoc in many communities but we have to remember most of these were uncompetitive and largely were a bastion of unionism. In a way she just gave it a direct shot in the head rather than letting it die slowly as much of them their closure was almost inevitable.
Ii) Controlling the unions. She went into office on such a manifesto and that was what the British public wanted, this also included many of the working classes who simply were sink and tired of industrial actions in the 1970s, since strikes meant no income. It isn't surprising then that she pursued and curtailed the unions with such vigour.
Iii) Right to buy, contrary to popular misconception this policy was a common policy long before she came to power. If you had studied the history of public housing when they first started these homes were respectable places to live until successive governments messed about with the eligibility for tenancy that essentially turned many of them into ghettos or near slum like conditions. Selling them off was the correct policy and approach as Britain as a whole had a long standing tradition of home ownership, much of these policies with regard to social housing was modeled from policies found in Singapore, the problem again came from poor implementation and management.
Iv) Milk snatching, it is unlikely anyone on here were ever affected by this policy, either way it wasn't from her time as PM, again this seems more of a hatred that she attempted a reform that attempted to prevent wastage that didn't go down well.
V) Closure of industries. A tough decision indeed, but again like the mines many of them were simply beyond repair or needed lots of money to save and it was money the public purse simply didn't have at that time. We can't say it was a bad decision many of them had been in steep decline due to poor labour practices and abysmal management.
Overall, I think she was the right person to be in office at that time and there isn't any guarantees that if it was someone else things could had been less difficult.
Posted from TSR Mobile
As someone from a former mining village in South Yorkshire and the daughter of a miner (whose father, brothers and grandfather were miners) I suppose that I do have a certain opinion of her. But I do not believe that people are uninfluence by the social surroundings in which they live. And so, while, yes, people shouldn't just hate her because their parents do, I think it really isn't a good thing to ignore how your own community felt, what people who were there at the time saw. You'd be blind to do that and really quite arrogant. It's easy for people whose families were not in these communities to say that those who hate her are blinded by left-wing ideas.
I do agree that the unions had become too strong and indeed strike action in the 1970s had caused havoc. Thatcher's policy of allowing council house tenents to buy their houses was a good policy as my family could buy their house.
However, I would say that the main reason why people in former mining communities ''hate'' her is not out of a lazy expectation of keeping a job permentantly no matter if the industry is unprofitable or not. It is greatly influenced by the way miners were treated as violent when they were not the only ones. Police brutality was largely ignored in the media during the 1984-85 strike, focusing instead on that of miners in order to to reduce public support for them. Which worked. The BBC have even admitted that they did not present the confrontation between police and miners at Orgreave correctly as they made the miners out to be the violent ones and the police innocent when infact the opposite was more correct. You only have to look at the recent revelations about Hillsborough to know that the police are not always in the right but are very reluctant to admit it.
Also, not all collieries were unprofitable. The one my father worked at was very productive (and did have a militant reputation as well as a hard working workforce). Yet, it too was considered to be otherwise. It's Silverwood colliery - you can look it up to see. Between 1985 to 1986 Silverwood held the second highest profit in the area, and produced a record first in the area of one million tonnes of coal. It didn't close until 1994 which was apparently because the pit tip (this is where the rock etc which has been removed from the mine is put after being separated from any bits of coal that may have been missed) was at full capacity. Though it is debatable whether this was the real reason for its closure. In the two years prior to its closure in 1994, Silverwood broke all production records for a coal mine... Unproductive?
And it was not the only one.
I don't hate Thatcher as a person - I don't know her. I admire her work ethic and her determination and strength. I even think that some of the things she did in office were not so bad. However, I cannot agree with her policies overall. If mines needed to shut, then surely it could have been done less ruthlessly towards mining communities, many of which have high levels of unemployment because these villages relied on and were built for mine workers.
I would urge people to research the miners strike and the history of coal mines at this time (there is a website dedicated to Silverwood which is probably the most detailed I've found) then a greather understanding may be developed.
I do agree that the unions had become too strong and indeed strike action in the 1970s had caused havoc. Thatcher's policy of allowing council house tenents to buy their houses was a good policy as my family could buy their house.
However, I would say that the main reason why people in former mining communities ''hate'' her is not out of a lazy expectation of keeping a job permentantly no matter if the industry is unprofitable or not. It is greatly influenced by the way miners were treated as violent when they were not the only ones. Police brutality was largely ignored in the media during the 1984-85 strike, focusing instead on that of miners in order to to reduce public support for them. Which worked. The BBC have even admitted that they did not present the confrontation between police and miners at Orgreave correctly as they made the miners out to be the violent ones and the police innocent when infact the opposite was more correct. You only have to look at the recent revelations about Hillsborough to know that the police are not always in the right but are very reluctant to admit it.
Also, not all collieries were unprofitable. The one my father worked at was very productive (and did have a militant reputation as well as a hard working workforce). Yet, it too was considered to be otherwise. It's Silverwood colliery - you can look it up to see. Between 1985 to 1986 Silverwood held the second highest profit in the area, and produced a record first in the area of one million tonnes of coal. It didn't close until 1994 which was apparently because the pit tip (this is where the rock etc which has been removed from the mine is put after being separated from any bits of coal that may have been missed) was at full capacity. Though it is debatable whether this was the real reason for its closure. In the two years prior to its closure in 1994, Silverwood broke all production records for a coal mine... Unproductive?
And it was not the only one.I don't hate Thatcher as a person - I don't know her. I admire her work ethic and her determination and strength. I even think that some of the things she did in office were not so bad. However, I cannot agree with her policies overall. If mines needed to shut, then surely it could have been done less ruthlessly towards mining communities, many of which have high levels of unemployment because these villages relied on and were built for mine workers.
I would urge people to research the miners strike and the history of coal mines at this time (there is a website dedicated to Silverwood which is probably the most detailed I've found) then a greather understanding may be developed.
(edited 11 years ago)
I never ceased to be amazed by the pure propaganda that people have in their heads. Someone told me that I ought to spend some time with a mining community on the weekend. Look at these stats. It’s completely laughable how the ideas in people’s heads seem to be so false, being so brainwashed by cultural marxism, the mass-media and general leftism.
UK mining, The decline in output, in percentages:
• 11 years of Thatcher: 33%
• 11 years before Thatcher: 45%
• 11 years after Thatcher (Major and Blair): 72%
• 11 years of New Labour (Blair and Brown): 64%
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7952388.stm
UK mining, The decline in output, in percentages:
• 11 years of Thatcher: 33%
• 11 years before Thatcher: 45%
• 11 years after Thatcher (Major and Blair): 72%
• 11 years of New Labour (Blair and Brown): 64%
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7952388.stm
(edited 11 years ago)
I loved the fact that she had conviction and was a strong leader, i found her a bit too socially Conservative and i loved the priciples behind much of her economic policies however a lot of them seemed to be either rushed or not thought through (the Right to Buy for example was brilliant, but there was no incentive given to business to create new social housing).
All in all i still view her as the greatest post-war PM but as i have looked into the detail i no longer view her quite as a political God.
All in all i still view her as the greatest post-war PM but as i have looked into the detail i no longer view her quite as a political God.
Original post by Rakas21
I loved the fact that she had conviction and was a strong leader, i found her a bit too socially Conservative and i loved the priciples behind much of her economic policies however a lot of them seemed to be either rushed or not thought through (the Right to Buy for example was brilliant, but there was no incentive given to business to create new social housing).
All in all i still view her as the greatest post-war PM but as i have looked into the detail i no longer view her quite as a political God.
All in all i still view her as the greatest post-war PM but as i have looked into the detail i no longer view her quite as a political God.
I do not think she was a great leader and I don't think she was at all principled.
In many respects, she was arrogant and didn't care what other people thought. By doing this, she caused rifts and rubbed people up the wrong way. This is not something a good leader does and a prime example of her doing this would be her disastrous poll tax idea, which caused massive unrest. Despite the obvious problems it was causing and despite the advice she was receiving, she just didn't listen!
Her handling of the Falklands crises before the, avoidable, war is another example of her bloody mindedness and unwillingness to listen.
As for principles... she sold out to tobacco companies despite being an anti smoking campaigner. She was also said to be an anti federalist, yet signed the single European Act.... she later said she was tricked into it?! Fair enough Mrs 'Fantastic' Leader.
Ultimately she was a woman with some strong views and she was determined to do whatever the bloody hell she wanted to do - whether it was for the benefit for the country or not. In the end this resulted in her being effectively kicked out of office and the word 'Thatcherism' became (for many years) a dirty word. That cannot be a sign of a great leader.
I've wondered about this too, especially because I usually get my news from the guardian and they are quite adamantly anti-capitalist.
I wouldn't say that Thatcherism became a dirty word:in my country, at least, it was used in a positive sense.
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
I wouldn't say that Thatcherism became a dirty word:in my country, at least, it was used in a positive sense.
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
The idea of thatcher was great, but the reality of her was awful.
Margaret Thatcher was pure evil for what she did look at the state of the economy now from 1979 to present Britain has gone down hill no one can get a job at least when it was you had Nationalzation in UK industries you didnt have to pay as much bills and you had work and before you start you never worked a day in your life i have worked several part time jobs since being at college and off to University see I dont care about people who just focus on making money all the time but I care about what Thatcher did to my family back in the 1980s I just hope her family goes bankrupt one day and cant sign on or get any benefits or jobs as because what they have created there will be no benefits or jobs in the economy for anyone by the time they are done apart from working at places like Tesco for minimum wage crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And a lot people consider her the greatest prime minister for winning the Falklands she didnt win the war the British Army won the war and the Royal Navy and she took all the credit for it before the falklands she was considered the most unpopular prime minister in history and if you watch interviews of her about the falklands afterwards she reveals her much mistakes she made she sent one of the biggest ships with some explosives on it so if that ship would have got hit the whole Navy would have been blown up in battle
And a lot people consider her the greatest prime minister for winning the Falklands she didnt win the war the British Army won the war and the Royal Navy and she took all the credit for it before the falklands she was considered the most unpopular prime minister in history and if you watch interviews of her about the falklands afterwards she reveals her much mistakes she made she sent one of the biggest ships with some explosives on it so if that ship would have got hit the whole Navy would have been blown up in battle
(edited 11 years ago)
Devastated the mass organisation of the working classes to the point where working-class representation is now near non-existent. This led to the creation of the 'underclass' and is the main reason we have gangs and 'chavs' on the streets now.
Deregulated financial industries on a mass scale and caused the recession we have today. (see: unrestricted credit, deregulation and financial speculation)
Led Britain into a pointless and bloody war over the Falklands in an attempt to expand British imperialism.
Created 4 million unemployed people, with the response being 'get on your bikes'
The Poll tax.
2 recessions.
Doubled inflation.
Record bankruptcies and repossessions.
Privatised nationalised industry in the name of efficiency and the free market (anyone who has used a train will a) recognise that they are inefficiently run and b) that different monopolies operate in different areas of rail use so businesses like National Rail have a monopoly in certain areas so it's not really part of a 'free' market: no competitors exist.)
Further deregulation of business meant that most of our manufacturing is now done overseas in South East Asia, meaning that British manufacturing doesn't really exist anymore and is why we are now a mostly services-based industry with many services jobs having been deskilled.
Short-term prosperity for the few and despondency for the many.
Law & Order justice policies that have ironically led to the vastly increased rates of crime we have now versus pre-1970, for example.
Some people think what she did was good. I personally don't, but my opinion isn't important. Even if you think she was positive, these are things she objectively did that had objective outcomes. I'm offering no judgement on that, I'm simply saying they happened and giving some of the reasons that people disagree with her. I study sociology and as such am not here to give you any alternatives, before you call me a dirty liberal / Marxist / Communist / Nazi. (I am none of those things.)
Deregulated financial industries on a mass scale and caused the recession we have today. (see: unrestricted credit, deregulation and financial speculation)
Led Britain into a pointless and bloody war over the Falklands in an attempt to expand British imperialism.
Created 4 million unemployed people, with the response being 'get on your bikes'
The Poll tax.
2 recessions.
Doubled inflation.
Record bankruptcies and repossessions.
Privatised nationalised industry in the name of efficiency and the free market (anyone who has used a train will a) recognise that they are inefficiently run and b) that different monopolies operate in different areas of rail use so businesses like National Rail have a monopoly in certain areas so it's not really part of a 'free' market: no competitors exist.)
Further deregulation of business meant that most of our manufacturing is now done overseas in South East Asia, meaning that British manufacturing doesn't really exist anymore and is why we are now a mostly services-based industry with many services jobs having been deskilled.
Short-term prosperity for the few and despondency for the many.
Law & Order justice policies that have ironically led to the vastly increased rates of crime we have now versus pre-1970, for example.
Some people think what she did was good. I personally don't, but my opinion isn't important. Even if you think she was positive, these are things she objectively did that had objective outcomes. I'm offering no judgement on that, I'm simply saying they happened and giving some of the reasons that people disagree with her. I study sociology and as such am not here to give you any alternatives, before you call me a dirty liberal / Marxist / Communist / Nazi. (I am none of those things.)
(edited 11 years ago)
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