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Do people live their lives by Utilitarianism

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Reply 20
Original post by RawJoh1
This does not entail that people act in a consequentialist or utilitarian fashion. Just because you "look to the cosnsequences of your actions" does not make you a utilitarian. Kant looks to the CONSEQUENCES of universal violation of a maxim in order to generate a contradiction in conception. But that doesn't make Kant a consequentialist.

Consequentialism is NOT the view that "consequences matter" or something like that. It is the thesis that the right action is that which maximises the good. This is not an uncontroversial view.

As to whether people live by util or consequentialism. Well ... some people do. Other people don't (I don't, for example). What are the proportions each side? No idea.


I think you're mistaken about the point I was trying to make. I didn't claim that looking the consequences of your actions qualifies you as a utilitarian, only that in considering the utility of a decision, consequentialist thinking is employed. If you're going to define consequentalism as considering that 'the right action is that which maximises the good' then you should know that that's the base principle of act utilitarianism - the greatest happiness for the greatest number. You're saying that Kant looks to the consequences but doesn't partake in consequential thinking? Okay, we're done here.
Reply 21
Original post by kynthiaa
I think you're mistaken about the point I was trying to make. I didn't claim that looking the consequences of your actions qualifies you as a utilitarian, only that in considering the utility of a decision, consequentialist thinking is employed. If you're going to define consequentalism as considering that 'the right action is that which maximises the good' then you should know that that's the base principle of act utilitarianism - the greatest happiness for the greatest number. You're saying that Kant looks to the consequences but doesn't partake in consequential thinking? Okay, we're done here.

Thinking about consequences != consequentialism or consequentialist thinking. That was my entire point.
Reply 22
Original post by tazarooni89
Personally I wouldn't say so. There are many theoretical scenarios in which most people would agree that the utilitarian method of determining what is moral doesn't provide a "correct" result.

For example, suppose you have an extremely rich man (Rob) and another man of average, or slightly below average wealth (Peter). Utilitarianism would suggest that, assuming nobody finds out about it, it is moral for Peter to steal £1000 from Rob, because this increases overall happiness. From Rob's perspective, £1000 is pocket change which he won't notice has gone missing, and doesn't mean much to him anyway. He won't lose much happiness as a result. But to Peter, £1000 is worth a lot more than it is to Rob. It could buy him a new car, or a nice holiday, or something he's only ever dreamed of, and therefore increase his happiness significantly.

One of utilitarianism's main drawbacks (compared to "common sense", I suppose,) is that it ignores the fact that people have their own individual rights that must be upheld, regardless of whether or not it increases overall happiness to do so.


There are branches of Utilitarianism which could create a different outcome. Take Mill for example, he believes in your actions creating a precedent for future actions and so to steal (despite the positive happiness gain) is considered wrong potentially as stealing will often then lead to negative hedons. Yet, the concept you bring forward could then be analysed as to why some circumstances bring greater happiness and attempt to legislate something which leaves a more continuously moral footprint (i.e. taxes).
Reading all this makes me want to re-read Mill's 'Utilitarianism'. In fact, I might go do that this afternoon.
Original post by Sellya
There are branches of Utilitarianism which could create a different outcome. Take Mill for example, he believes in your actions creating a precedent for future actions and so to steal (despite the positive happiness gain) is considered wrong potentially as stealing will often then lead to negative hedons. Yet, the concept you bring forward could then be analysed as to why some circumstances bring greater happiness and attempt to legislate something which leaves a more continuously moral footprint (i.e. taxes).


Following that precedent argument, if the poorer person steal from the richer one, that's one thing, but then an even poorer person will therefore be allowed to steal from the person who stole initially,and therefore it all 'trickles down' and no-one is left happy.
Reply 25
Original post by thecrimsonidol
Following that precedent argument, if the poorer person steal from the richer one, that's one thing, but then an even poorer person will therefore be allowed to steal from the person who stole initially,and therefore it all 'trickles down' and no-one is left happy.


That was my point, despite the occasional instances of net positive hedons, stealing will lead to negative hedons in the future so it shouldn't be done. However, as a pragmatic utilitarian one may desire to analyse those instances where happiness is created over the negatives and see what could be done to bring them into existence in a way of maximised utility (and thus I linked in taxes, which is very similar to stealing but doesn't have the consequences of precedent )
Original post by Sellya
There are branches of Utilitarianism which could create a different outcome. Take Mill for example, he believes in your actions creating a precedent for future actions and so to steal (despite the positive happiness gain) is considered wrong potentially as stealing will often then lead to negative hedons. Yet, the concept you bring forward could then be analysed as to why some circumstances bring greater happiness and attempt to legislate something which leaves a more continuously moral footprint (i.e. taxes).


I see what you mean. But I'd expect that most people would consider it wrong to steal that money, even if there were some sort of guarantee of not getting caught, or if there were no possibility of the rich man ever missing the money, or other negative effects resulting from the theft. Just as a matter of principle if nothing else. The attitude will often simply be more of a deontological "Thou shalt not steal" kind of situation.

On the other hand, negative "pleasure" can potentially result from just about anything. In fact there are some actions (which most people would agree are perfectly acceptable) which may even be more likely to result in "negative pleasure" than the example I gave earlier of secretly stealing a rich man's money. For example, it would normally be considered acceptable for a black man to walk down a street, even if it causes extreme negative pleasure to the racist inhabitants of that street. (Let's assume the black man isn't walking down the street out of any major desire or necessity, he's just wandering around because he's a bit bored, and would be equally happy walking down any other street).
Not all people live by Utilitarianism, when you see so many people make their decision (stupidly) regardless of the consequence they have to bear
Original post by thecrimsonidol
Following that precedent argument, if the poorer person steal from the richer one, that's one thing, but then an even poorer person will therefore be allowed to steal from the person who stole initially,and therefore it all 'trickles down' and no-one is left happy.


My consideration is,When you steal, you get money, but you're undertaking the risk of being sent to jail.
So is it worthwhile to steal with this risk?
Reply 29
Utilitarianism is such a flawed ethical theory
I think ethical theories need to be more absolute, otherwise its kind of 'anything goes', Utilitarianism could be used to justify getting rid of all the immigrants in the UK, as long as more people were made happy by it, which is clearly wrong
Reply 30
Original post by manty
Hey guys, i havent studied philosophy but im really interested in it, is Utilitarianism a decision making tool, in which happiness is the primary factor?



In my school Utilitarianism comes more into Ethics than Philosophy, but that might just be the way they divide up the course

Bentham designed the Hedonic Calculus, which is a way he came up with to make decisions. It took things like fecundity and propinquity into account, and was used to work out which action would result in the most happiness.
I would think that people subscribe especially to hedonism - what with all of the alcohol and screen entertainment.
Reply 32
Original post by tazarooni89
Personally I wouldn't say so. There are many theoretical scenarios in which most people would agree that the utilitarian method of determining what is moral doesn't provide a "correct" result.

For example, suppose you have an extremely rich man (Rob) and another man of average, or slightly below average wealth (Peter). Utilitarianism would suggest that, assuming nobody finds out about it, it is moral for Peter to steal £1000 from Rob, because this increases overall happiness. From Rob's perspective, £1000 is pocket change which he won't notice has gone missing, and doesn't mean much to him anyway. He won't lose much happiness as a result. But to Peter, £1000 is worth a lot more than it is to Rob. It could buy him a new car, or a nice holiday, or something he's only ever dreamed of, and therefore increase his happiness significantly.

One of utilitarianism's main drawbacks (compared to "common sense", I suppose,) is that it ignores the fact that people have their own individual rights that must be upheld, regardless of whether or not it increases overall happiness to do so.


With this example you are only analysing the short term effects. The longer term effects of allowing this sort of behaivour would clearly create a worse society (allowing people to steal would almost certainly do this). This would, in my opinion, decrease the overall "happiness" of everyone. I think we have rights because giving everyone those rights creates a better society to live in.

This does raise the problem that we rarely know which corse of action is best because it is often very difficult to precisely analyse the long term consequences.
Reply 33
Original post by Sovr'gnChancellor£
I would think that people subscribe especially to hedonism - what with all of the alcohol and screen entertainment.



Absolutley, even though Hedonism is possibly the WORST ethical 'theory' (if it can even be called ethical)

Its selfish, which is why most people do it
Original post by james22
With this example you are only analysing the short term effects. The longer term effects of allowing this sort of behaivour would clearly create a worse society (allowing people to steal would almost certainly do this). This would, in my opinion, decrease the overall "happiness" of everyone. I think we have rights because giving everyone those rights creates a better society to live in.

I'm not talking about allowing this sort of behaviour. I'm simply talking about doing it once, even though society doesn't allow it, and not getting caught.

A single instance of you stealing from someone without them noticing may make you happier than you were before, and they may be no less happy than they were anyway. It's quite possible that there would be no long-term reduction in overall happiness at all. And as such, it would be acceptable based on utilitarian principles, but unacceptable in the minds of most people.

Giving people rights does overall make for a better society to live in. But a single breach of those rights does not necessarily make society overall any less happy than it was before.
Original post by _BlueBell_
Utilitarianism is such a flawed ethical theory
I think ethical theories need to be more absolute, otherwise its kind of 'anything goes', Utilitarianism could be used to justify getting rid of all the immigrants in the UK, as long as more people were made happy by it, which is clearly wrong


Morals are subjective, thus anything does go.

That said, as humans seek wellbeing as primary, we should do our best to be as nice to others as possible.

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