Belfast Riots?

I think it's pathetic. People rioting and causing chaos over a piece of fabric/cloth. That's what a flag is, a piece of cloth. Yet the foaming at the mouth nationalists (on either side) will find any excuse to wage violence, that's what it's really about. Nationalism is outdated.

Reply 21

jco19

13

Original post by the mezzil

The truth hurts.

Reply 22

the mezzil

3

Original post by jco19

The truth hurts.

Did you read anything want Lib or I said? It's not really to do with nationalism, more to do with UNIONISM.

Reply 23

jco19

13

Original post by the mezzil

Did you read anything want Lib or I said? It's not really to do with nationalism, more to do with UNIONISM.

They have their union. It's not going to change anytime soon, regardless of what flag is on the town hall.

Reply 24

the mezzil

3

Original post by jco19

They have their union. It's not going to change anytime soon, regardless of what flag is on the town hall.

Good, I hope it doesn't but that is mainly what the riot is about - unionism, as I said before nobody cares about the cloth itself, it's what the cloth represents and sybolisis which is why people are rioting. The majority do not want partition from the union.

Why would you want to take a flag down that is doing no harm and go to all that effort of combating rioters if there was no real reason behind it? Think about it. Taking down the national flag is something that symbolisis pro-republicans and partition from the union. This is why unionists are unhappy.

Reply 25

pol pot noodles

19

Original post by jco19

I think it's pathetic. People rioting and causing chaos over a piece of fabric/cloth. That's what a flag is, a piece of cloth. Yet the foaming at the mouth nationalists (on either side) will find any excuse to wage violence, that's what it's really about. Nationalism is outdated.

What a tool. There is such thing as trying to sound too smart. Mere piece of cloth my arse. Flags are symbols of identity. The unionists see the taking down of their flag as an attempt to strip away their Britishness.

Reply 26

jco19

13

Original post by pol pot noodles

What a tool. There is such thing as trying to sound too smart. Mere piece of cloth my arse. Flags are symbols of identity. The unionists see the taking down of their flag as an attempt to strip away their Britishness.

Symbols of identify, yes. For people who cannot forge their own identity. Unfortunately the British Isles are plagued by nationalism.

Reply 27

Aaron9890

11

It's really annoying isn't it? I too am from the protestant community and while I do not agree with the riots, I just don't seem to understand why they took the flag down. There where no problems beforehand from the Roman catholic community and yet they felt the need. Basically the council created the violence themselves, they just turned a previously ok situation into a problem. Now if they put It up there will be riots from the other side of the community. an absolutely pointless exercise in my eyes!

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 28

IRSP044

Original post by KerryF94

Hello!

I live in Belfast..obviously and some of you will know there have been riots going on for atleast a month! Im not in them btw! :P
Anyway, obviously its between Catholics and Protestants yet again (what a surprise?!) due to the Union Jack being taken down from the City Hall!

I was just wondering what everyone thinks about this? I am against any violence regardless of the cause. I don't really know many people from England or Scotland so I never really find out any viewpoints! :smile:

Btw, no comment made will offend me because I will probably agree! :smile:

Its not between Catholics and Protestants.
Its Loyalists supremacists in uproar over a flag. Stoked up by the UVF and scumbags like Willie Frazer. They would like nothing better than to bring us back to the 60s where the PUL community has all the power.

And the riotings with the cops. Though they have attacked the Short Strand for the las 5 nights which was met with a response.

Reply 29

Organ

13

Original post by KerryF94

Hello!

I live in Belfast..obviously and some of you will know there have been riots going on for atleast a month! Im not in them btw! :P
Anyway, obviously its between Catholics and Protestants yet again (what a surprise?!) due to the Union Jack being taken down from the City Hall!

I was just wondering what everyone thinks about this? I am against any violence regardless of the cause. I don't really know many people from England or Scotland so I never really find out any viewpoints! :smile:

Btw, no comment made will offend me because I will probably agree! :smile:

I live in Oxfordshire, England and everybody that I have spoken to about this, and I personally, think that these people are absolutely mental. Those involved in this process are displaying a concept of British identity totally alien to us. I'm aware that this is mainly young working class Protestants in East Belfast who are unemployed and so on, and is not reflective of the wider Unionist community in Northern Ireland.

Reply 30

cl_steele

2

simple way to enbd this, put all of the rioters against the nearest wall. Society would be better off without religious hooligans running around anyway.

Reply 31

L i b

19

Original post by jco19

I think it's pathetic. People rioting and causing chaos over a piece of fabric/cloth. That's what a flag is, a piece of cloth.

No it isn't. At least not any more than a circle is a scribble on a page. A piece of cloth flown as a flag is a representation of a symbol with deep meaning.

Original post by jco19

They have their union. It's not going to change anytime soon, regardless of what flag is on the town hall.

Actually, my case was that it ought to be flown as a symbol of the inclusive symbol of this country in order to secure our united future. This decision attempts to cast the Union Jack as a tribal banner, which it is far more than.

That's false. Local authorities can fly it as often or as little as they see fit. Many councils in Great Britain fly it every day of the year. Even within some council areas, there is a difference: Glasgow City Chambers only flies it on designated days, but it is flown every day from some other council-owned buildings within the city. Practice is wide and varied over here.

Also the flag is offensive/alien/foreign (along those lines) to a sizeable minority of the population whose wishes must be taken into consideration

As I've said previously, I think those views should be utterly rejected - as should the views of those on the Unionist side who want to turn the Union Jack into a divisive, tribalist symbol.

To pander to those views harms the unity of the people. If we listen to a small minority of the stark raving mad then soon it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy and our national symbols will become exclusively the preserve of one side of a sectarian division and not another.

Where that has happened already, we must claw it back.

So while Belfast remains in the UK, its people are British and Irish which should be reflected I think with a Tricolour and a Union Flag

I can't imagine anything more backward or divisive, or indeed more likely to turn the Roman Catholic population of Northern Ireland into effective aliens in their own land.

Reply 32

Lust of a Gardener

1

Original post by L i b

No it isn't. At least not any more than a circle is a scribble on a page. A piece of cloth flown as a flag is a representation of a symbol with deep meaning.

You're entirely correct.

I have to agree that National symbols, be they flags or otherwise, tend to have very significant and deep meanings for a Community. I don't imagine we'd see such disgusting violence on the streets of Belfast if flags were simply scribbles on a page. This is Northern Ireland, for God's sake! We wrote the book on trite symbolism!

When a symbol can inspire such adoration and unbridled Patriotism, can you imagine for a moment that it could also inspire the complete opposite. Whilst I can understand your profession that the Union Flag is a symbol of "inclusiveness" and a "United future", I can't help but feel that this is nothing short of a Romantic ideal that would serve better in Finchley than in the Politically charged streets of Belfast.

It must be understood that in Northern Ireland the Union Flag is not considered simply a National Flag; it transcends this definition to become an all-encompassing symbol of Religion, Ethnicity, Tribalism, and Political affiliation. It simply can't be what you want it to be, unless the entire population of Northern Ireland volunteers for a dose of self-induced Amnesia (Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea).

As someone of a Nationalist persuasion, I have to admit that I rolled my eyes when I heard of the proposal to remove the flag from Belfast City Hall. I could literally smell the inevitable sh*tstorm that was going to roll it's way through Belfast when the proposal was made! The fact that it effectively passed wasn't particularly shocking, but I honestly felt that the whole issue was more trouble than it was worth.

In a perfect world, the lowering of the flag at Belfast City Hall would be viewed as a step toward Political normalisation in Northern Ireland, and a step away from the Orange State of the 60's and 70's - but clearly this isn't the case, and I would only be engaging in fantasy to think otherwise. You see, for a certain spectrum of Northern Irish society normality is decidedly abnormal, and any attempts to alter this is viewed with a certain degree of suspicion.

I won't lie; I wouldn't be particularly concerned if the flag was once again raised over Belfast City Hall on a permanent basis, but I would be truly devastated if it was these apparent "Protests" that provided the catalyst to reverse the decision. It simply has to be understood that throwing your toys out of the pram and flexing your muscles is not an acceptable way to behave when you disagree with a decision made by a Local Council. Saying otherwise just reinforces a very dangerous and undemocratic mentality.

Reply 33

KerryF94

OP

Original post by Aaron9890

It's really annoying isn't it? I too am from the protestant community and while I do not agree with the riots, I just don't seem to understand why they took the flag down. There where no problems beforehand from the Roman catholic community and yet they felt the need. Basically the council created the violence themselves, they just turned a previously ok situation into a problem. Now if they put It up there will be riots from the other side of the community. an absolutely pointless exercise in my eyes!

I agree with you but I think that this country looks to rioting as a solution to every problem which has obviously been passed down through generations! Its beyond pathetic

Reply 34

unclekevo

Trying to make the Union flag a symbol of both communities won't work, regardless of what way you look at it, many Catholics do and always will see it as a symbol of oppression, a symbol of the violence in the 70's and 80's just as many Unionists view the Tricolour, the only way NI can have any hope of going forward is to create a new flag that is symbolic of both sides of the community, yes it would probably be met with a dose of skepticism but both flags have far too much history and association with violence. I believe the main politicians from both sides of the community need to come together and agree on a symbol to represent a united NI, inclusive of Unionists, Nationalists, everyone in NI. Neutral colours, similar to the EU flag is probably the only way forward because if Nationalists were to see red, white and blue, they would see it as oppressive to them, on the other hand, green, white and orange would obviously be oppressive to some Unionists.

For the record, I'm Catholic but I don't have strong political motivations, I'd rather everyone would stop dwelling on the past and move forward to a united NI, I can't say I have a particularly strong identity in terms of either Irish or British, I'd be more likely to identify myself as Northern Irish.

Reply 35

KerryF94

OP

I can see where you are coming from but I think if it isnt broke dont fix it. There was nothing wrong with the flag being at city hall, but taking it down has caused riots which has cost business owners a lot of money. It was obvious there would be a riot it is Northern Ireland at the end of the day! Theyll riot over anything!
The country is not the problem it is the immature,violent and selfish people living in it.

Reply 36

deehee

Original post by jco19

The truth hurts.

Let's fly the flag of Islam over ten downing street while we're at it. Or why not the flag of wehrmacht germany

hey, it's just a flag ! it doesn't mean anything. everything is just a shade of blue, green and red anyway. everything is just atoms anyway, nothing actually exists.

and don't forget we are supposed to be multicultural afterall !

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 37

democracyforum

4

fly both flags

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 38

Steve1654

11

I think the violence is unnecessary but Northern Ireland just has two sides of passionate religious group with different ideas and there's a lot of history between them, but with the flag situation i think it's ridiculous that they are restricting the flying of the union flag. After all it's part of Britain and will be for time to come. I don't know a lot about Northern Irish politics but there must be some way the central government in London can overrule this? (Correct my if i'm wrong) :smile:

Reply 39

KerryF94

OP

Original post by Steve1654

I think the violence is unnecessary but Northern Ireland just has two sides of passionate religious group with different ideas and there's a lot of history between them, but with the flag situation i think it's ridiculous that they are restricting the flying of the union flag. After all it's part of Britain and will be for time to come. I don't know a lot about Northern Irish politics but there must be some way the central government in London can overrule this? (Correct my if i'm wrong) :smile:

There are riots every July because of the Protestant parade and they havent done anything yet :/

Belfast Riots?

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