The reality of sexism in the UK today - bank note campaigner forced into hiding
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These death threats are despicable, but death threats can come from many people. I can recall Erin Prizzey having to leave the country due to death threats from Feminists and their supporters when she had the audacity to point out that DV wasn't about men assaulting women but both men and women assaulting their partners because of learned patterns of behaviour. Cowards come in many forms.
Original post by Chief Wiggum
Loads of the stories submitted to that aren't sexist at all.
Have you seen what people submit to the everydaySexism twitter account for example?
Apparantly a University Challenge episode with 8 male contestants (selected through competitive trials at their Oxbridge colleges, in which men and women can participate) is an example of "everyday sexism".
Have you seen what people submit to the everydaySexism twitter account for example?
Apparantly a University Challenge episode with 8 male contestants (selected through competitive trials at their Oxbridge colleges, in which men and women can participate) is an example of "everyday sexism".
There's definitely a sexist element to how UC works at some level, since every series is dominated by male competitors from most universities - successful teams frequently only have one female member. I'm not saying that the selection process is biased or anything, there may be a number of factors at work. Certainly the way the media report attractive female competitors in top teams has been very sexist in the recent past - total attention paid to their looks, rather than their ability to win. Not all the time, but enough times to suggest that it's reasonable to say that sexism operates in UC.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
This must stand as one of the worst usages of the word 'troll' I've seen. Have you even noticed what she was campaigning about? Did the word 'woman' enter in there somewhere? In what sense do you conclude I'm 'trolling?
You are either trolling, or you are stupid (as someone else posted). Given that you studied PPE at Oxford, I'll assume that you're trolling.
This woman launched a sexist campaign, to get "a woman" on a banknote, regardless of her particular achievements. She wanted someone to be on a banknote SOLELY for their gender, which is obviously sexist. She just wanted a woman, without caring who the woman was.
While threats are not acceptable, she is targeted because of the campaign she was running, not because "she was a woman".
Plenty of male politicians/public figures get threats over Twitter. This is not a woman's only issue.
The above is so obvious (especially the final sentence) that you must be trolling. Because it is impossible that someone cannot see that abuse affects both genders on Twitter, and that just because a woman gets abuse does not mean she is being abused solely for being female.
And if this is all some elaborate fantasy or troll, why has Tony Wang, boss of Twitter, personally apologised to women?
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/03/twitter-boss-apologises_n_3700177.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
Because of the pressure feminists were putting on him. It's actually completely sexist and ridiculous that he only apologised to women: online threats and abuse affects both genders.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There's definitely a sexist element to how UC works at some level, since every series is dominated by male competitors from most universities - successful teams frequently only have one female member. I'm not saying that the selection process is biased or anything, there may be a number of factors at work. Certainly the way the media report attractive female competitors in top teams has been very sexist in the recent past - total attention paid to their looks, rather than their ability to win. Not all the time, but enough times to suggest that it's reasonable to say that sexism operates in UC.
Yes, female competitors do get a lot of comments on their looks. But that's more an "online compliment" thing, rather than some sort of institutional bias of University Challenge itself. People were suggesting on Twitter that having 8 males was sexist, when the colleges obviously have selection procedures that are open to both genders
(Even Mary Beard suggested she was considering complaining about it, a Fellow of a Cambridge college that bans males from applying!)
[Sorry, massively off-topic post.]
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Caroline Criado-Perez, the graduate student who led the campaign to ask the Bank of England to feature at least one woman on the banknotes, has been forced to leave her home by large numbers of death threats, threats of sexual violence and other threats - she is now living at a guest house under her boyfriend's name.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
Be quiet. Why someone would go out their way for that is beyond me. The queen is a woman and she is on most things money wise.
To be honest men throughout history have done more than women... i do accept that women long ago were oppressed to some degree so they couldnt contribute to the level that men did, but tht is just the way it was.
Ive never once noticed there was only one woman on bank notes, so this feminist person must have a really warped brain to pick out stuff like that.
She must lose sleep over that on her key ring there are just male parts of the key+lock assembly.
Sometimes lots of men are chosen for something because they all got it on merit and not a patriarchal conspiracy. Equally, women can get the same without it being equality for the sake of it.
To insinuate or enforce either does a disservice to both genders.
Posted from TSR Mobile
To insinuate or enforce either does a disservice to both genders.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There's definitely a sexist element to how UC works at some level, since every series is dominated by male competitors from most universities - successful teams frequently only have one female member. I'm not saying that the selection process is biased or anything, there may be a number of factors at work. Certainly the way the media report attractive female competitors in top teams has been very sexist in the recent past - total attention paid to their looks, rather than their ability to win. Not all the time, but enough times to suggest that it's reasonable to say that sexism operates in UC.
Actually, I've got first hand experience of this.
I was the Captain of my university's UC team for 2 years. In order to qualify for the televised element of the competition you have to be in the top 20 of applying teams. BUT, only the top ~15 or so are done on actual scores. The other ~4/5/6 are done on whether or not they 'look good' for the BBC on tv. This essentially came down to whether or not they have a female on the team.
We qualified 19th the first year I was captain (we won't talk about the second year...) but as we were an all-male team and predominantly post-grad (I was the only under grad), we did not make the cut.
It's all very well saying that feminists should focus on bigger issues (which they already do, fyi) but don't you think that someone receiving death threats over what is essentially a rather insignificant issue in the grand scheme of things is quite worrying? What the hell would have happened if this were actually a bigger issue that more people cared about, were emotionally invested in and were downright pissed at the consequences of one woman's actions?
Since when are idiots on the internet something newsworthy? I may be and likely am wrong here, but this seems to just be giving her cause and feminists the attention they want so they're making a bit of a meal out of it because they don't get the amount of attention in the news they'd like. You see people like Justin Bieber getting a ****storm of insults and whatnot on the internet but I'm yet to see a news story on it.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
There's definitely a sexist element to how UC works at some level, since every series is dominated by male competitors from most universities - successful teams frequently only have one female member. I'm not saying that the selection process is biased or anything, there may be a number of factors at work. Certainly the way the media report attractive female competitors in top teams has been very sexist in the recent past - total attention paid to their looks, rather than their ability to win. Not all the time, but enough times to suggest that it's reasonable to say that sexism operates in UC.
I don't know exactly how other unviersities do it but where I am the selection process is based purely on how well you score in the trials. No room for any bias and still the teams are male dominated.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Caroline Criado-Perez, the graduate student who led the campaign to ask the Bank of England to feature at least one woman on the banknotes, has been forced to leave her home by large numbers of death threats, threats of sexual violence and other threats - she is now living at a guest house under her boyfriend's name.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
While this is disgusting and Criado-Perez obviously doesn't deserve to be treated like this, that doesn't mean you can use it as a trump card to show what sexism is really like OP. There are pieces of **** out there capable of threatening both men and women probably grounded in sexism.
I can point to the example of the Toronto protests against anyone who even thought to give MRA's the time of day. A lot of feminists (even on here) say that that's only one incident and doesn't represent the majority. Can we not say the same with this incident?
At no point did I say that it was a rare thing...merely a response to your comment about how feminists should focus on bigger things to highlight why that is an issue in itself. Of course, it's something that happens across the board, and I'm not implying otherwise - that still doesn't make it less of an issue. Ok, she's probably not the most innocent of people going by her Twitter page alone but that is absolutely no justification for death threats - dissent, fine, that's to be expected but a bunch of people going to extremes...not cool. And that goes for ANYONE who gets this same abuse.
We must unite and fight this gender struggle together!
Original post by fat_hobbit
One just has to go into the health and relationships section to see this.
The amount of desperate single men out numbers the amount of desperate single women. If that doesn't tell you how women have the upper hand socially (dating in particular), I don't know what will.
The amount of desperate single men out numbers the amount of desperate single women. If that doesn't tell you how women have the upper hand socially (dating in particular), I don't know what will.
Probably hard data, and extensive in-depth studies, perhaps? Until then, I refuse to draw conclusions!
For example, your suggestion of TSR doesn't convince me for the following, epically long reasons. I have the word of a human being, who is subject to selective bias, like all other human beings, that posts by single men outnumber posts by single women. To be certain of that, we would have to gather a team of people, and give those people modding privileges so they could see IP addresses, to avoid counting the same person multiple times. Then we'd set them to collecting data.
While those poor souls collected those data, we would have to collect information about the active membership of this site. Do equal members of men and women use the site, in the first place?
This site is hardly a cross-wise representation of British society in other respects. It is mainly (although not exclusively) populated by under-25s, who are studying in some capacity. Can conclusions drawn from members here be validly applied across society?
Next, assuming that all that research supported your claims, we would have to account for other variables. For example, are single women less likely to ask for support on the internet? Now this is another investigation in itself, but my subjective experience would say yes.
This is about likelihood not certainty, because we are all individuals, but my impression over the years has been that it is a lot easier for an unhappy straight female teenager/young adult to get emotional support and (occasionally utter ****) practical advice with relationships than an unhappy straight male teenager/young adult.
I think the internet is the main source of support for more men than women, due to the anonymity it provides.
There are thousands of self-help guides about relationships aimed at young women; women's magazines which run article after article about how to get and keep your man, "what he's really thinking" articles, "how to blow his mind in bed" articles etc; problem pages in said magazines, etc.
Where the male may feel ashamed/embarrassed to ask friends and family with support, or be told to "get over it", family of the female may expect her to need support, and her friends will delight in discussing and (over)analysing every single detail. The "you don't need a boyfriend" is generally delivered with a supportive tone and coupled with an attitude that it's normal to feel like you do.
Breaking down in tears over unrequited love with one's friends is practically compulsory! In fact, if no female in the friendship group has relationship problems (in getting or keeping a relationship), they may be reduced to buying a magazine on celebrities' love lives...
On this count, if evidence bears out my experience, you could perhaps argue that women have the "upper hand socially".
Yes, I did indeed loathe discussing relationships as a teenager. How did you guess?
As people grow up, I personally think (I have no hard evidence) that women post for relationship advice more, but on fora populated mainly by fellow adults, as they become more cognizant that the advice given by their friends is often crap. Consequently they anonymously seek advice over the internet from people they don't know, who thus cannot pass on personal details to their other friends.
I'll go and write a sequel to the Iliad now. It's long overdue, after all.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Chief Wiggum
Loads of the stories submitted to that aren't sexist at all.
Have you seen what people submit to the everydaySexism twitter account for example?
Apparantly a University Challenge episode with 8 male contestants (selected through competitive trials at their Oxbridge colleges, in which men and women can participate) is an example of "everyday sexism".
Have you seen what people submit to the everydaySexism twitter account for example?
Apparantly a University Challenge episode with 8 male contestants (selected through competitive trials at their Oxbridge colleges, in which men and women can participate) is an example of "everyday sexism".
I'm not saying every single submission is an example of sexism, but the majority are.
Original post by DarkWhite
I'm not saying every single submission is an example of sexism, but the majority are.
They're pretty tenuous though. If that's what passes for "sexism against women", then I can think of plenty of examples of sexism against men in everyday life. It's pretty poor logic to look at a site solely for documenting sexism against women, and concluding that women therefore experience more sexism than men.
It's a real shame this has happend, but let's not forget that what she was suggesting is entirely misogynistic and disingenuous to women. To me it seems to suggest that the only way you can have women on banknotes is by ensuring that there is legislation ensuring this happens, as opposed to trusting that woman have done and will continue to do great things in this country which are worthy of them being placed on a bank note.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Caroline Criado-Perez, the graduate student who led the campaign to ask the Bank of England to feature at least one woman on the banknotes, has been forced to leave her home by large numbers of death threats, threats of sexual violence and other threats - she is now living at a guest house under her boyfriend's name.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/04/caroline-criado-perez-twitter-rape-threats
The reality of sexism in the UK - not some abstract discussion about lad mags, but harsh threatening behaviour dished out to a female student who has the temerity to win a battle to have the authorities recognise women in a public way. She's a really good person and her family have been through a lot - she deserves better.
Britain has a long way to go to modernise its attitudes.
Is it an issue specifically limited to feminists or is this just part of the problem of the Internet providing an opportunity to insult and threaten? Part of the same problem as cyber bulleying of teanagers and other forms of harassment on the Internet? Racism, sexism, targeting the obese, ugly, whatever.
Is it that society is any different to 30 years ago or is it just the Internet has given it a gateway to be more insulting from the comfort of their PC chair?
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