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Vector spaces span

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Reply 40
Original post by cooldudeman
I didnt understand when you said to eliminate x4 in each equation because I ended up with three identical equations.

You're expecting to end up with identical equations. That's what it means for a system of equations to have a kernel.

Original post by cooldudeman
I followed this method on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgSOb0bnfjE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But what would I write on my question marks?

What allowable x4 are there such that (reduced matrix).(x1,x2,x3,x4) has a chance of being (0,0,0)? What, if anything, does that force the other variables to obey? Then what allowable x3 are there, satisfying those forcing constraints, etc? Repeat until you have constraints on all of x1,x2,x3,x4. (I don't know if your reduced form is right - I didn't bother checking that.)
Reply 41
Original post by Smaug123
You're expecting to end up with identical equations. That's what it means for a system of equations to have a kernel.


What allowable x4 are there such that (reduced matrix).(x1,x2,x3,x4) has a chance of being (0,0,0)? What, if anything, does that force the other variables to obey? Then what allowable x3 are there, satisfying those forcing constraints, etc? Repeat until you have constraints on all of x1,x2,x3,x4. (I don't know if your reduced form is right - I didn't bother checking that.)


Hi again. Could yoy tell me how to find basis of a row space of a matrix please?

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Reply 42
Original post by cooldudeman
Hi again. Could yoy tell me how to find basis of a row space of a matrix please?

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Call your vectors U, V, W. First you know that <U,V,W> must have dimension 1,2 or 3 (since it is spanned by a set of size 3). You should be able to work out quickly that it cannot have dimension 1. Now try to solve aU+bV+cW=0 and one of two things will happen.

1. You find that a=b=c=0 is the only solution, in which case the vectors must be independent so they already form a basis (linearly independent and a spanning set).

2. You get a non-zero solution for a,b,c and so the vectors are not linearly independent. Since you know it does not have dimension 1, any 2 of the 3 vectors will form a basis (can you see why?).
Reply 43
Original post by cooldudeman
Hi again. Could yoy tell me how to find basis of a row space of a matrix please?

Interestingly, I'm not sure quite how much I'm allowed to say without breaching my coursework non-collaboration guidelines. http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/catam/IB/2pt3.pdf has some assistance in, though.
Reply 44
Original post by james22
Call your vectors U, V, W. First you know that <U,V,W> must have dimension 1,2 or 3 (since it is spanned by a set of size 3). You should be able to work out quickly that it cannot have dimension 1. Now try to solve aU+bV+cW=0 and one of two things will happen.

1. You find that a=b=c=0 is the only solution, in which case the vectors must be independent so they already form a basis (linearly independent and a spanning set).

2. You get a non-zero solution for a,b,c and so the vectors are not linearly independent. Since you know it does not have dimension 1, any 2 of the 3 vectors will form a basis (can you see why?).


If theyre not LI, then how did you know that it would br any of tye two instead of any if the one?


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(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 45
Original post by cooldudeman
If theyre not LI, then how did you know that it would br any of tye two instead of any if the one?


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What would it mean if any one of the row vectors formed a basis of the row space?
Reply 46
Original post by Smaug123
What would it mean if any one of the row vectors formed a basis of the row space?


That its still not LI? And it can't span

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(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 47
Original post by Smaug123
What would it mean if any one of the row vectors formed a basis of the row space?


I put it in a matrix and got the rref and found that it had three pivots meaning that all three of the vectors in the row space forms a basis of row space A. Would that be accepted? Because eliminating take really long to see if they are LI. The matrix way is pretty much the same thing isnt it.

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Reply 48
I did it the equation way too. It seems like that the basis of a row space will always just be the same as the row space.
I think that I still dont understand tbh.
Definition of a basis is that it has to span the vectors in the set and be LI. The set of rowA is LI so it must be a basis if rowA too. ?


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(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 49
Original post by cooldudeman
I did it the equation way too. It seems like that the basis of a row space will always just be the same as the row space.
I think that I still dont understand tbh.
Definition of a basis is that it has to span the vectors in the set and be LI. The set of rowA is LI so it must be a basis if rowA too. ?

Consider the matrix {{1,0}, {1,0}, {1,2}} which has three rows. Find a basis of its row space.
Reply 50
Original post by Smaug123
Consider the matrix {{1,0}, {1,0}, {1,2}} which has three rows. Find a basis of its row space.

Ignore first pic.
? If it is then ok I see that not all of them are in. And yes I do see that you've repeated a vector so the set is not LI. Im just getting used to this matrix method.

That wouldnt be classed as a set wpuld it? Cuz it has a repeated element. Im guessing that you were just showing a point.

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(edited 10 years ago)
Which exam board is this? Is this fp3???
Reply 53
Original post by cooldudeman
If theyre not LI, then how did you know that it would br any of tye two instead of any if the one?


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There could not be just 1 because none of those vectors are a scalar multiple of the other.
Reply 54
Original post by cooldudeman
Ignore first pic.
? If it is then ok I see that not all of them are in. And yes I do see that you've repeated a vector so the set is not LI. Im just getting used to this matrix method.

That wouldnt be classed as a set wpuld it? Cuz it has a repeated element. Im guessing that you were just showing a point.

It's meant to be a matrix, not a set. I should probably have used tuple (a,b) notation instead.
Reply 55
Original post by Ilovemaths96
Which exam board is this? Is this fp3???

No. This is fundamental to maths, but it's not taught at A-level.
Reply 56
Original post by cooldudeman
Ignore first pic.
? If it is then ok I see that not all of them are in. And yes I do see that you've repeated a vector so the set is not LI. Im just getting used to this matrix method.

That wouldnt be classed as a set wpuld it? Cuz it has a repeated element. Im guessing that you were just showing a point.

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He's using mathematica-style matrix formatting. He's asking you to find a basis of the row space of the matrix

(101012)\displaystyle\left( \begin{array}{cc}1 & 0 \\ 1 & 0 \\ 1 & 2\end{array}\right)


Original post by cooldudeman
I did it the equation way too. It seems like that the basis of a row space will always just be the same as the row space.


This is definitely not true. In fact, there is no situation in which they can be the same. The basis of any vector space is always a strict subset of that vector space (in particular, it doesn't include the zero of that vector space).

I think that I still dont understand tbh.
Definition of a basis is that it has to span the vectors in the set and be LI. The set of rowA is LI so it must be a basis if rowA too. ?


You are confusing the set of rows of AA with its row space. The former is the finite set containing its rows expressed as elements of Rn\mathbb{R}^n (where AA has nn columns). The latter is the (infinite, unless you're dealing with a finite field or a zero matrix) vector space spanned by them.

Specifically, if we let RR denote the row space of an nn by mm matrix
Unparseable latex formula:

A = \left( \begin{array} v_1 \\ v_2 \\ \vdots \\ v_m\end{array} \right)

(where v1,v2,...,vmRnv_1, v_2, ..., v_m \in \mathbb{R}^n are the rows of AA), then
R={k=1mαkvk:αkR}\displaystyle R = \left\{ \sum_{k=1}^m \alpha_k v_k : \alpha_k \in \mathbb{R} \right\}
(assuming real matrices throughout. Obviously, it works fine for matrices over any ring).


It is, however, true that if the rows of a matrix are linearly independent, then they must form a basis of the row space of that matrix, since they span it by definition.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 57
Original post by BlueSam3

This is definitely not true. In fact, there is no situation in which they can be the same. The basis of any vector space is always a strict subset of that vector space (in particular, it doesn't include the zero of that vector space).

I think he meant "the rows always form a basis", which is counterexampled by my repeated-row matrix.
Reply 58
Original post by BlueSam3
He's using mathematica-style matrix formatting. He's asking you to find a basis of the row space of the matrix

(101012)\displaystyle\left( \begin{array}{cc}1 & 0 \\ 1 & 0 \\ 1 & 2\end{array}\right)




This is definitely not true. In fact, there is no situation in which they can be the same. The basis of any vector space is always a strict subset of that vector space (in particular, it doesn't include the zero of that vector space).



You are confusing the set of rows of AA with its row space. The former is the finite set containing its rows expressed as elements of Rn\mathbb{R}^n (where AA has nn columns). The latter is the (infinite, unless you're dealing with a finite field or a zero matrix) vector space spanned by them.

Specifically, if we let RR denote the row space of an nn by mm matrix
Unparseable latex formula:

A = \left( \begin{array} v_1 \\ v_2 \\ \vdots \\ v_m\end{array} \right)

(where v1,v2,...,vmRnv_1, v_2, ..., v_m \in \mathbb{R}^n are the rows of AA), then
R={k=1mαkvk:αkR}\displaystyle R = \left\{ \sum_{k=1}^m \alpha_k v_k : \alpha_k \in \mathbb{R} \right\}
(assuming real matrices throughout. Obviously, it works fine for matrices over any ring).


It is, however, true that if the rows of a matrix are linearly independent, then they must form a basis of the row space of that matrix, since they span it by definition.


Thanks for taking time to explain it.
And for confirming the last part of what you wrote.

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Reply 59
Original post by BlueSam3
.


Original post by Smaug123
I think he meant "the rows always form a basis", which is counterexampled by my repeated-row matrix.


Can anyone of you please tell me if im doing anything wrong in these questions. I haven't got the solutions.

Obviously im not expecting anyone to check the matrix workings. Just the methods I've used.

I didnt know how to do 2c 3a and 3b...

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