The Student Room Group

Abolish primary language lessons?

I know you all love languages-into-primary-schools, and so do I when they are well taught, but actually it seems to be a waste of time. At least in Germany, there is some evidence that they are pretty useless:

A surprise survey by the Catholic University of Eichstaett has thrown the educational authorities into confusion. An unpublished study of school teachers shows that 95 per cent of sixth formers who had primary school English lessons were no better at the language than children who did not. Two thirds of the teachers consider English instruction before the age of 11 'completely redundant'.

link

I've suspected this before, though I think it is down to lack of timetabling and language teachers who can barely speak the language themselves. Regardless, these limitations are real, and I don't think they can realistically be overcome, so I think there is a real case to be made against wasting money and resources on badly taught and inefficient language lessons in primary schools.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 1
Whether primary education is the cause or not, no idea of attainment at say age 12, you ought to consider the English language skills of the Swedes who I believe start English age seven.

They certainly do something right, the UK plays at early language teaching and gets results that match the limited effort.

(The Swedes maybe have the advantage of extensive broadcasting of English language TV, this may be a significant influence)
Reply 2
Original post by DJKL
(The Swedes maybe have the advantage of extensive broadcasting of English language TV, this may be a significant influence)


I think this would be very significant. This basically doesn't exist in Germany (everything is dubbed on German TV), so German primary children typically hear the language for 1 or 2 lessons a week in a classroom (of 30 children = basically negligible speaking time per child) and that's it. The teaching is hit and miss (no specialist language teachers), the children have nothing to use the language for and no-one to practise it with. If there was some element of immersion (even just native speakers as teachers would be a huge plus), then I think primary languages could be huge, but unfortunately I don't think this is realistic for mainstream schools.

Don't Sweden dub children's TV though? Or do they use only subtitles?
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 3
Original post by llys
I know you all love languages-into-primary-schools, and so do I when they are well taught, but actually it seems to be a waste of time. At least in Germany, there is some evidence that they are pretty useless:


link

I've suspected this before, though I think it is down to lack of timetabling and language teachers who can barely speak the language themselves. Regardless, these limitations are real, and I don't think they can realistically be overcome, so I think there is a real case to be made against wasting money and resources on badly taught and inefficient language lessons in primary schools.


I have my primary school to thank for a lot of the French vocab I know, verbs tenses and stuff probably is a bit useless aside from the really basic phrases but those lessons full of classroom items, fruit and veg, rooms and pets plus a bit more complex stuff I had before secondary school proved invaluable - well on track for a GCSE A* in August

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Reply 4
Original post by llys
I think this would be very significant. This basically doesn't exist in Germany (everything is dubbed on German TV), so German primary children typically hear the language for 1 or 2 lessons a week in a classroom (of 30 children = basically negligible speaking time per child) and that's it. The teaching is hit and miss (no specialist language teachers), the children have nothing to use the language for and no-one to practise it with. If there was some element of immersion (even just native speakers as teachers would be a huge plus), then I think primary languages could be huge, but unfortunately I don't think this is realistic for mainstream schools.

Don't Sweden dub children's TV though? Or do they use only subtitles?


I think they do dub, to tell you the truth I don't watch that much children's TV when in Sweden. However I do know The Simpsons is broadcast in English as I have watched it when there. The other thing is music on the radio, there is a lot of UK/USA music getting airplay.

In ten years, spending about four weeks each year in Sweden, I have only come across two Swedes who did not speak some English; one of them was brought up in Finland and the other was about seventy years old. Even those working in shops/supermarkets tend to have a little English and those with a flair for languages will often start a second foreign language at circa twelve/ thirteen years old.

My nearest neighbour is very fluent in English and German and this has enabled him to act as an engineering consultant in both countries.

The difference in attitude to foreign languages compared with the UK boils down to the fact that the Swedes know that few foreigners will learn Swedish, the country is economically small compared with Germany and the UK. They have to learn these other languages for their companies to prosper in the European marketplace.
"A surprise survey by the Catholic University of Eichstaett has thrown the educational authorities into confusion. An unpublished study of school teachers shows that 95 per cent of sixth formers who had primary school English lessons were no better at the language than children who did not. Two thirds of the teachers consider English instruction before the age of 11 'completely redundant'."

This is quite contrary to the research of Noam Chomsky and Steven Pinker though, who have done many years of research and determined the exact opposite. They show that it is much harder to learn a language after 11. Perhaps they have drawn the wrong conclusion and it is the education system that is to be blamed.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by KrisCussans
"A surprise survey by the Catholic University of Eichstaett has thrown the educational authorities into confusion. An unpublished study of school teachers shows that 95 per cent of sixth formers who had primary school English lessons were no better at the language than children who did not. Two thirds of the teachers consider English instruction before the age of 11 'completely redundant'."

This is quite contrary to the research of Noam Chomsky and Steven Pinker though, who have done many years of research and determined the exact opposite. They show that it is much harder to learn a language after 11. Perhaps they have drawn the wrong conclusion and it is the education system that is to be blamed.


They don't say that children cannot learn the language - they do say the teaching in primary schools is bad (in the article) - so bad that it is essentially redundant and has no longterm effects. Specialist language teachers at secondary school usually have to start from scratch because of this, and by the end of the first year at secondary school, all the children are on the same level anyway.

That implies it could be fixed. However, in practice it is very difficult to fix, because there just are not enough language specialist teachers for all primary schools, and not enough hours in the primary school timetable. So the point is, if you cannot realistically fix it, perhaps it is better not to spend any more money on it.

I think that the UK, which only introduced primary languages very recently, will have very similar problems. There is an extreme shortage of language specialists in the UK - so the vast majority of pupils will be taught by teachers who only just scraped a GCSE in French, or less in some cases - and there is very little space in the timetable - I think 1 hour per week is allocated to languages now? That is useless. Only primary schools who go above and beyond that (say teacher-trained native or at least fluent speakers, at least 3 hours a week) will see long-term effects. The idea is sound, but it is not practicable.

One idea for the UK is to teach a community language - Hindi, Polish or Arabic, for example. That would have the advantage that there are tons of native speakers who could teach it, and (most crucially) children would have friends to practise with every day. That is probably the closest to immersion you can get in a mainstream primary school. But the government doesn't seem keen on community languages, so I doubt that would be funded...
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by llys
They don't say that children cannot learn the language - they do say the teaching in primary schools is bad (in the article) - so bad that it is essentially redundant and has no longterm effects. Specialist language teachers at secondary school usually have to start from scratch because of this, and by the end of the first year at secondary school, all the children are on the same level anyway.

That implies it could be fixed. However, in practice it is very difficult to fix, because there just are not enough language specialist teachers for all primary schools, and not enough hours in the primary school timetable. So the point is, if you cannot realistically fix it, perhaps it is better not to spend any more money on it.

I think that the UK, which only introduced primary languages very recently, will have very similar problems. There is an extreme shortage of language specialists in the UK - so the vast majority of pupils will be taught by teachers who only just scraped a GCSE in French, or less in some cases - and there is very little space in the timetable - I think 1 hour per week is allocated to languages now? That is useless. Only primary schools who go above and beyond that (say teacher-trained native or at least fluent speakers, at least 3 hours a week) will see long-term effects. The idea is sound, but it is not practicable.

One idea for the UK is to teach a community language - Hindi, Polish or Arabic, for example. That would have the advantage that there are tons of native speakers who could teach it, and (most crucially) children would have friends to practise with every day. That is probably the closest to immersion you can get in a mainstream primary school. But the government doesn't seem keen on community languages, so I doubt that would be funded...


I agree in most part. I would advocate teaching of community languages, priority to Chinese (Mandarin) and Arabic, (not so much Polish, but the option should always be there). First hand practical learning of the language is always more effective than standard text book nonsense.

I am quite the advocate against our current system of education and often point Francsico Ferrer's Modern School as a good model, one that teaches students how to think rather than what to think. Giving children the thirst for knowledge rather than simply the 'facts' as they are put so subjectively.

Give the means to learn a language and I will, give me the skills to do research and I will do it, even for leisure.

But yes the UK does not deal very well with languages, maybe because education officials think we don't need to? An arrogance that English will remain the dominant language, it certainly will remain among the most dominant, but we should still teach Mandarin and French, even Spanish and Arabic. Key languages for everyday life in a ever more globalised world.
The UK education system has certainly failed me, it is only now at university that I am truly being 'taught'. And I am learning French alongside my studies.

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