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Group theory (FP3)

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Any easy way of doing part iii)? By Lagrange's theorem we must have subgroups of order 2 and 5, and by part i) these subgroups must be cyclic... is there any easy way to do this without writing out the Cayley table for the group?

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Reply 1
The group is modulo 11, and you want subgroups of order 2 or 5, so find the numbers that are the multiplicative inverses of 2 or 5 in the group Z/11Z\mathbb{Z}/11\mathbb{Z}. The cyclic groups generated by these elements are the subgroups you want.
Reply 2
Original post by 0x2a
The group is modulo 11, and you want subgroups of order 2 or 5, so find the numbers that are the multiplicative inverses of 2 or 5 in the group Z/11Z\mathbb{Z}/11\mathbb{Z}. The cyclic groups generated by these elements are the subgroups you want.


I'm sorry, I don't quite follow, could you perhaps explain in a simpler way? When you say find the "multiplicative inverses of 2 and 5" do you mean the inverse elements of 2 and 5 in the group M?
Reply 3
Original post by lizard54142
I'm sorry, I don't quite follow, could you perhaps explain in a simpler way? When you say find the "multiplicative inverses of 2 and 5" do you mean the inverse elements of 2 and 5 in the group M?



NOPE! I was wrong, I misread and thought it was an additive group.

In this case you want x2x^2 or x5x^5 equal to 1 mod 11 which is a far harder problem, so the best is probably to go with Cayley tables.

Sorry!
Reply 4
Original post by 0x2a
NOPE! I was wrong, I misread and thought it was an additive group.

In this case you want x2x^2 or x5x^5 equal to 1 mod 11 which is a far harder problem, so the best is probably to go with Cayley tables.

Sorry!


Ah, no the binary operation is multiplication mod 11. No worries! I'll just have to do it the old fashioned way.
Reply 5
Original post by lizard54142
Ah, no the binary operation is multiplication mod 11. No worries! I'll just have to do it the old fashioned way.


Do you know anything that's special if the order of the group is prime?

Spoiler



EDIT: I'm not sure I understand your question, you've already answered it without needing to write out the tables!
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by shamika
Do you know anything that's special if the order of the group is prime?

Spoiler


EDIT: I'm not sure I understand your question, you've already answered it without needing to write out the tables!


I have already done part i) (By Lagrange's Theorem all proper subgroups have orders which are factors of the order of the group, 10 = 2x5 2 and 5 are both prime, groups of prime order are cyclic etc...) and part ii). I know how to do part iii) and I've done it correctly, I checked my answers with the mark scheme, but I had to write out the Cayley Table for the group to do this. I was just wondering if there was an easier way to find all the proper subgroups without having to write out the Cayley Table.
Reply 7
Original post by lizard54142
I have already done part i) (By Lagrange's Theorem all proper subgroups have orders which are factors of the order of the group, 10 = 2x5 2 and 5 are both prime, groups of prime order are cyclic etc...) and part ii). I know how to do part iii) and I've done it correctly, I checked my answers with the mark scheme, but I had to write out the Cayley Table for the group to do this. I was just wondering if there was an easier way to find all the proper subgroups without having to write out the Cayley Table.


Can you show me the markscheme? (Which board and year is the paper from?) It seems tedious to not just be able to say "clearly M has subgroups of order 2 and 5, which have to be cyclic by (ii)" to finish off (iii)?
Reply 8
Original post by shamika
Can you show me the markscheme? (Which board and year is the paper from?) It seems tedious to not just be able to say "clearly M has subgroups of order 2 and 5, which have to be cyclic by (ii)" to finish off (iii)?


This is FP3 (OCR MEI) June 07. For part iii) you have to specifically list all the subgroups, with all their elements, you can't just say what orders they will have.
Reply 9
Original post by lizard54142
This is FP3 (OCR MEI) June 07. For part iii) you have to specifically list all the subgroups, with all their elements, you can't just say what orders they will have.


I suppose that's fair actually, otherwise the question would be very trivial. It's very easy to figure out what the groups must be.
Original post by shamika
I suppose that's fair actually, otherwise the question would be very trivial. It's very easy to figure out what the groups must be.


Please enlighten me. We obviously have {1,10}\{1, 10\}. How can we easily determine the elements of the subgroup of order 5?
Reply 11
Original post by lizard54142
Please enlighten me. We obviously have {1,10}\{1, 10\}. How can we easily determine the elements of the subgroup of order 5?


Wait, you are allowed a calculator for this exam, right?
Original post by 0x2a
Wait, you are allowed a calculator for this exam, right?


Yes.
Reply 13
Original post by lizard54142
Yes.


Then actually it is quite easy. You just need to solve the equation x510(mod11)x^5 - 1 \equiv 0 \pmod{11}.
Original post by 0x2a
Then actually it is quite easy. You just need to solve the equation x510(mod11)x^5 - 1 \equiv 0 \pmod{11}.


For xMx \in M? So this will give you an element of order 5, which will be the generator for the cyclic subgroup of order 5,
Original post by lizard54142
groups.jpg

Any easy way of doing part iii)? By Lagrange's theorem we must have subgroups of order 2 and 5, and by part i) these subgroups must be cyclic... is there any easy way to do this without writing out the Cayley table for the group?


Minor point (not worth worrying about if it distracts you from the exam's main content), but the existence of order-2 and order-5 subgroups is in fact a consequence of Cauchy's Theorem rather than Lagrange's. Lagrange tells you that all nontrivial proper subgroups are of order 2 or 5, but it doesn't tell you that such subgroups actually exist. Cauchy's Theorem gives you existence.
Reply 16
Original post by lizard54142
For xMx \in M? So this will give you an element of order 5, which will be the generator for the cyclic subgroup of order 5,

The solutions to this equation in this case is x = 1,3,4,5,9. Now x = 1 clearly must be omitted, but with any other x, yes a cyclic subgroup is generated as if xp=1x^p = 1 in any group where pp is prime and xx is not the identity, then the subgroup generated by xx MUST be cyclic (this follows from Lagrange's theorem).
Original post by Smaug123
Minor point (not worth worrying about if it distracts you from the exam's main content), but the existence of order-2 and order-5 subgroups is in fact a consequence of Cauchy's Theorem rather than Lagrange's. Lagrange tells you that all nontrivial proper subgroups are of order 2 or 5, but it doesn't tell you that such subgroups actually exist. Cauchy's Theorem gives you existence.


No idea what Cauchy's Theorem is :smile: so I will correct my statement: "if (any) subgroups exist for MM, then by Lagrange's Theorem we must have proper subgroups of orders 2, or 5".

Original post by 0x2a
The solutions to this equation in this case is x = 1,3,4,5,9. Now x = 1 clearly must be omitted, but with any other x, yes a cyclic subgroup is generated as if xp=1x^p = 1 in any group where pp is prime and xx is not the identity, then the subgroup generated by xx MUST be cyclic (this follows from Lagrange's theorem).


I understand yeah, thanks for this. So to confirm (even though it's trivial) for the subgroup of order 2 we would be solving the equation:

x210(mod11)x^2 - 1 \equiv 0 \pmod{11}?
Reply 18
Original post by lizard54142
I understand yeah, thanks for this. So to confirm (even though it's trivial) for the subgroup of order 2 we would be solving the equation:

x210(mod11)x^2 - 1 \equiv 0 \pmod{11}?

Yep!
Original post by 0x2a
Yep!


I guess the easiest way of solving this would be to just plug all the elements of the group into it. Thanks for this! So if a question on prime order subgroups under the binary operation of modular multiplication comes up in the exam, I'll save precious time :wink:

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