It's official UK's global presence is in tatters

I don't disagree with you on China's economic development. I don't know about socially. Democratically, I think you're dreaming.

In case you couldn't tell, my first post was not meant in an entirely serious manner.

They have come a long way from where they were in everything not just the economy

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Reply 61

TimmonaPortella

21

Original post by paul514

They have come a long way from where they were in everything not just the economy

Do you have any reliably sourced examples for me?

In particular, if anyone can show me meaningful steps taken towards democratic representation, and properly guaranteed political freedoms, or more general individual liberties, I'd be interested to see them.

Reply 62

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by TimmonaPortella

I don't disagree with you on China's economic development. I don't know about socially. Democratically, I think you're dreaming.

In case you couldn't tell, my first post was not meant in an entirely serious manner.

Western style democracy is a concept of the west. Huge swathes of the world do not follow, or often agree with our democratic principals.

People, and cultures are different throughout the world.

I've yet to meet a Chinese person who is critical of the Chinese government, maybe because they remember a generation earlier where they were a peasant based economy.

Democracy will come with time, but at the moment the vast majority of the Chinese population seem happy with what they have.

Reply 63

Lord_hanson

8

A lot are critical about the government. They are mostly concerned with the corruption and the wealth gap between rich and poor. They may have lifted people out of poverty(ish... try going to the Chinese countryside) but they re-introduced serfdom. Look up the Hukou system and tell me it isn't serfdom.

Reply 64

jeremy1988

13

I think maybe dismantling the empire was a mistake. I mean, by yourselves, you may not be very much... but if you had Ireland, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia back and you all operated as one nation, then you'd be a lot more.

I mean, I really don't think people thought independence through. How exactly are all those countries better off as minor world powers apart, than one larger world power together? It made more sense than the EU, which forced together nations with different languages that don't even have a remotely similar culture.

The only former colony that's actually strong is the US, and I swear that's only because we control over 1/3rd of North America all by ourselves. Probably the best land, too. Most of Mexico is too hot and dry, most of Canada is too cold... honestly, we have the best real estate, and a lot more of it. We certainly aren't doing better because we're smarter. I mean, think about it... what do the US, China, and Russia all have in common? Land. Lots of land. Also a large population. If Canada has the ambition, they may emerge as a superpower in the future as well, because it's easier to develop and use land in colder climates now. A lot of untapped potential there.

Now, I would say that Great Britain's greatest asset is experience and leadership. The problem is that you don't have anyone left to lead, or any place to apply the centuries of geopolitical experience now. You're a nation of generals and kings, but without an army or anyone to lead. Canada and Australia have the opposite problem... they're just sort of being carried along by inertia, not really pushing very hard or trying anything ambitious. They're getting by, but they're not doing as well as they would with your leadership.

I think you allowed political correctness to get the better of you. You have no where to expand in Europe. You're just an island, and if you want to have any real power, you need land, people, and resources. You understood that once, but it seems like you've forgotten or just somehow lost the will to succeed. You don't want blood on your hands any more, you just stay on your island rather than actually doing something about it. Like conquering Africa, trying to go to space and terraform planets... just something to get out in the world and accomplish things.

Because honestly, the truth is, we live in a world where you either colonise and conquer, or become the colonised and conquered. There is no prize for wringing your hands with guilt and feeling bad about spilling blood. It just makes you an easy target for those who would take advantage.

If you ever want to be great again, then you have to work out some way of acquiring more territory, and people to make it profitable. It really is that simple, when you cut away all the philosophical, moral, and emotional elements. Those are the things that matter. Trade relationships are great, higher education is great, diplomacy is great, but it can't replace sheer numbers, large territories, active development, the implied threat of a large and skilled army, and the tax base that comes with all of that. It just can't.

Maybe you've resigned yourselves, maybe you haven't. This is just something that deserves consideration.

Reply 65

Lord_hanson

8

@Jeremy, my thoughts exactly. Colonisation of planets should be the UK's goal. That and abandoning political correctness.

Reply 66

TimmonaPortella

21

Original post by MatureStudent36

Western style democracy is a concept of the west. Huge swathes of the world do not follow, or often agree with our democratic principals.

People, and cultures are different throughout the world.

I've yet to meet a Chinese person who is critical of the Chinese government, maybe because they remember a generation earlier where they were a peasant based economy.

Democracy will come with time, but at the moment the vast majority of the Chinese population seem happy with what they have.

I don't see how any of this supports your explicit claim that China has 'come a long way... democratically'.

I think the level of contentment with the government in China is acceptable, and that this is part of the reason why we shouldn't sacrifice our trade interests to flatter ourselves that we can influence China's systems of government in any serious way. Do not, however, be under any illusions about the Chinese State. We have guaranteed fundamental rights and political freedoms, an independent judiciary which publicly applies prospectively promulgated laws, due process, checks on government power, and so forth. In these respects our system of government is not merely different from the Chinese one. It is better. I find total relativism in this respect rather tiresome. It is perfectly okay to take a position, not only as individuals but also as a culture and society, on which system of government is better.

Reply 67

Rakas21

21

Original post by Lord_hanson

They are buying assets outside their country because their economy is failing. The houseing market has failed. I live in China and I only have to look out of the window to see empty high rises. The stock market is crashing, the domestic consumption is very low for a country of over 1 billion. Their government is in power based on the promise of economic growth. I don't want to see what happens when they fail to live up to their promises.

Obviously you live there so perhaps there will be an actual recession however statistically all that's really happening is that your service sector (still growing at a fair rate) is taking over as the dominant part of your economy. Hence, growth should stabalise without recession.

Reply 68

Bill_Gates

OP

21

I welcome our new Chinese emperors, i hope they visit my city. My city very much needs their money, my government have failed us :frown:

Reply 69

Quanty

look, it is time we come to terms with the fact that this is America's world now. instead of letting our jealousy crumble any dignity we have left, we need to focus on domestic issues. international issues are out of our hands and should be left to the significant countries (US, china, russia, etc). we dont have the time or the resources to make anything happen

Reply 70

SaucissonSecCy

16

Original post by Rakas21

I think that people hate on the USA too much. Normally our interests are aligned in foreign policy.

.

What, like Iraq? Like being in the EU in order to further America's influence on what actions it takes? I'm not going to have us staying in the EU for the woeful reason that it's what America wants and we 'damage our relationship(subservience)'(as Ed Milband said) with them by exit. Good, that's exactly what we should do- we should get back our distrust, our rebelliousness, our independent spirit, and not to mention our cojones. You couldn't be more wrog, US and British interests are divergent, they always wanted us indebted and wanted to dismantle the British empire. You fans of the 'special relationship' have no real concern about our own independence or power in my view.

Reply 71

SaucissonSecCy

16

Original post by Quanty

look, it is time we come to terms with the fact that this is America's world now. instead of letting our jealousy crumble any dignity we have left, we need to focus on domestic issues. international issues are out of our hands and should be left to the significant countries (US, china, russia, etc). we dont have the time or the resources to make anything happen

Actually it's China's world. America is bought up by them to a large degree.
But yeah we need to stop these deluded grandiose foreign policy missions and views of ourselves, and somehow drag people out of this leaden conservatism and post imperial world they live in to address our huge huge domestic problems and make a better country.