Something smells rotten here

Original post by BaconandSauce

No I've studied Islamic history and read what Islamic scholars have said about the matter

But shoot the messenger as it's easier than accepting the truth,

It's nice that you take them so seriously then. Evidently I was mistaken and we should set aside 300 years of enlightenment and our modern secular states and go back immediately to the Christian/Islam wars of the 13th Century because some Islamic scholars say that's how it is and some Christian fundamentalists agree with them and claim it's all part of an inevitable history and ignore any and all evidence to the contrary because some lunatics from one of the main religions are currently running around declaring that their fringe cult is the one true representative of it. Oh and we should give in to the rants of people on web forums who presumably would only be truly satisfied by a genocide of Muslims plus I assume the nuking of all Arab states?

Reply 43

Original post by Fullofsurprises

It's nice that you take them so seriously then.

Yes I tend to take muslim scholars and their understanding of their faith very seriously

To ignore it would be stupid would it not..

Reply 44

Original post by BaconandSauce

Yes I tend to take muslim scholars and their understanding of their faith very seriously

To ignore it would be stupid would it not..

Yeah, I think you can predict everything about the workings of the modern world from a close reading of Islamic scholarly ramblings.

Reply 45

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Yeah, I think you can predict everything about the workings of the modern world from a close reading of Islamic scholarly ramblings.

Shooting the messenger

But then I won't get all stabby when my opinions are challenged so I suppose I'm the easy target

Reply 46

Underscore__

Original post by QE2

Do you define "bashing and alienating" to include logical and reasonable criticism of their chosed ideology?

No I don't consider reasonable critique as bashing. The kind of thing I'm talking about are idiots like the EDL and Britain First who offer no intelligent debate.

Original post by QE2

Also, why are other groups who are being/have been bashed and alienated not fallen into the hands of radicals with a violent agenda in the same way? You don't think that perhaps the fact that their ideology already contains the extreme and violent, has something to do with it?

I'm not sure any group has had it this bad before in the UK

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 47

Original post by Drewski

And?

Sadly, twas ever thus. I take solace in the fact that 99% of them are not meant seriously, they're just there to rile people.

Original post by Unkempt_One

Several years ago there were threads like this except much tamer, but they were negged to oblivion and spammed with outraged comments. There were also loads of posters who just posted one-liners and gags since that was the sure-fire way to rack up mad pos. Since negs were removed the primary motivator of anonymised disapproval and snark has been deconstructed, and rather than contest these views maturely it seems many just left, and thus the threads have got worse. That's how I see it anyway.

Or the lies and ignorance of "Nothing to do with Islam" are starting to be deconstructed and exposed as people are forced to deal with the uncomfortable reality facing us all

Reply 48

Original post by Underscore__

I'm not sure any group has had it this bad before in the UK
Posted from TSR Mobile

Racists and Homophobic idiots have

Reply 49

Original post by Underscore__

No I don't consider reasonable critique as bashing. The kind of thing I'm talking about are idiots like the EDL and Britain First who offer no intelligent debate.

I'm not sure any group has had it this bad before in the UK

Posted from TSR Mobile

2015 Brits are largely liberal and good people. This goes against beliefs like homophobia, subjegation of women, religious supremity, cutting aid workers heads of etc

Plenty of intelligent debate and discussion around, your just looking for a reason to justify your victim status which is another common theme people are cottoning onto

Reply 50

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Or the lies and ignorance of "Nothing to do with Islam" are starting to be deconstructed and exposed as people are forced to deal with the uncomfortable reality facing us all

The problem is that whilst clearly the "nothing to do with Islam" argument doesn't really wash, the opposite view, that mainstream Islam is 100% dedicated to the mass murder of infidels is also full of falsehood, not least because visibly it isn't true. Therefore the extreme arguments on both sides are presenting a false view of reality about Islamic thought, tradition and modern interpretation/actions which are more complex.

The big danger is that we create an even more fertile recruitment ground for IS and their fellow travelling groups by tarring all Muslims with the same brush and harshly treating them as a result. Even those who can't stand the idea of large immigrant populations in the west and in the UK have to acknowledge the reality, that 3m-odd Muslims live in this country who have up to now largely behaved peaceably. Do we really want that to collapse into Balkan-style madness just to satisfy our rage about IS and the current wave of Islamic extremist interpreters?

Reply 51

Original post by Fullofsurprises

This is absoloutely not true. This is not the mainstream view in the slightest. Western Media and Politicians are still pushing the "Nothing to do with Islam" argument. This view isnt even held by many vocal "far right" people like Tommy Robinson.

Original post by Fullofsurprises

The big danger is that we create an even more fertile recruitment ground for IS and their fellow travelling groups by tarring all Muslims with the same brush and harshly treating them as a result. Even those who can't stand the idea of large immigrant populations in the west and in the UK have to acknowledge the reality, that 3m-odd Muslims live in this country who have up to now largely behaved peaceably. Do we really want that to collapse into Balkan-style madness just to satisfy our rage about IS and the current wave of Islamic extremist interpreters?

Nobody is tarring all muslims with the same brush, far from it. The only people who think this are people who see criticism, scrutiny and condemnation of Islam as an attack on all Muslims.

Reply 52

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Nobody is tarring all muslims with the same brush, far from it. The only people who think this are people who see criticism, scrutiny and condemnation of Islam as an attack on all Muslims.

Lots of people on the web are tarring and feathering. Objective consideration and scrutiny of Islam and the way it is interpreted and practised isn't very likely in the kind of atmosphere immediately following an outrage by a group claiming to be the sole authentic representative of that religion. It is also very doubtful that many western sources are truly knowledgeable enough about Islamic history and tradition to be 'objective'. What passes for scrutiny often boils down to regurgitation of material which when you trace it back online, comes originally from US christian fundamentalist sources, hardly objective.

Reply 53

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I think it's broadly the view informing many of the reactions we see on web forums and there's plenty of it coming through on TSR. I don't think it's true that the mass media are generally covering it from an "Islam is not to blame" position - some politicians have been covered saying things like that, but we also have the Right in the US and elsewhere visibly acting in deeply bigoted anti-Muslim ways. We also see a dialogue of many newspapers featuring stories about how Muslims generally support part or all of the IS platform which we see repeated in web forums, often citing the same poll done some years back which had very dubious credentials.

Lots of people on the web are tarring and feathering. Objective consideration and scrutiny of Islam and the way it is interpreted and practised isn't very likely in the kind of atmosphere immediately following an outrage by a group claiming to be the sole authentic representative of that religion. It is also very doubtful that many western sources are truly knowledgeable enough about Islamic history and tradition to be 'objective'. What passes for scrutiny often boils down to regurgitation of material which when you trace it back online, comes originally from US christian fundamentalist sources, hardly objective.

Are you American?

Reply 54

QE2

Original post by Underscore__

No I don't consider reasonable critique as bashing. The kind of thing I'm talking about are idiots like the EDL and Britain First who offer no intelligent debate.

I'm still not sure how the behaviour of some racist xenophobes would make a moderate British Muslim think "Ah, **** it! I'm off to Syria so I can get myself a sex slave and do a bit of killing", or "That's it, I'm going to blow up a train full of random people".

I'm not sure any group has had it this bad before in the UK

How bad are they having it, exactly? How many Muslims have been killed in hate attacks? Are jobs, housing and other services denied them because of their religion? Blacks and gays have been systematically targetted far more violently and for much longer. There have been deaths and institutionalised prejudice and even legislation. I don't recall how many Afro-Caribbeans and homosexuals were driven into the arms of violent radicals by it, or how many bombings and massacres were carried out in retaliation.

Reply 55

QE2

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I think it's broadly the view informing many of the reactions we see on web forums and there's plenty of it coming through on TSR.

This is demonstrably not true. The xenophobic racism of the far right is in a small minority. Even UKIP don't claim that all Muslims want all kuffars dead, converted or dhimmis (although Islam as an ideology does).

Comments of that type are few and far between on TSR, and when they do occur, they always receive censure and criticism from the majority.

If there is a group who all display a universal mindset that is neither supported by evidence nor helpful to the problem, it is Muslim who all cliam that Islam in no way promotes violence and groups like ISIS have nothing to do with Islam.

We also see a dialogue of many newspapers featuring stories about how Muslims generally support part or all of the IS platform

References please.

which we see repeated in web forums, often citing the same poll done some years back which had very dubious credentials.

All the poll that I have seen (and they are conducted regularly) have been carried out by reputable market research companies, and the results are always fully published for anyone to analyse. So, again, could you cite the dubious credentials of the latest polls please?

Lots of people on the web are tarring and feathering.

Ironically, that is exactly what you are doing. And with exactly the same weak reasoning that you incorrectly accuse others of.

It is also very doubtful that many western sources are truly knowledgeable enough about Islamic history and tradition to be 'objective'.

Again, an unsupported assertion, and a non sequitur. There are many non-Muslims who are highly knowledgable about Islam. And what about ex-Muslims? Do they suddenly lose all their knowledge on apostasising?
By definition, it is impossible for a Muslim to be objective about Islam.

What passes for scrutiny often boils down to regurgitation of material which when you trace it back online, comes originally from US christian fundamentalist sources, hardly objective.

The reason that many online sources critical of Islam carry similar arguments is because those are often the most reasonable answers that arise from analysing Islamic scripture and history. The reason why those Christian websites say that the Quran permits slavery, or domestic violence, or killing of opponents of Islam, is because it does. In its own words. (Personally, I never use any online sources other that the Quran, hadith and tafsir from Islamic sites. That way, arguments like yours cannot be levelled.)

Another thing that also seems to escape apologists, if arguments put forward on "anti-Islam" sites are inadmissable because of bias, that so are arguments from "pro-Islam" sites.

Reply 56

Original post by DiceTheSlice

Hmmm I don't think the Quran is the only medium that endorses these practices.

So you agree the Quran does endorse these practices

Reply 57