Immigrant benefits isn't the issue, freedom of movement is!
David Cameron seems to think restricting benefits will somehow stop EU immigrants coming here. I'm fairly certain the 30 Romanian immigrants who lived in Hyde Park for 2 years weren't claiming benefits and it didn't deter them from coming here.
Immigrants will strive towards El'dorado/UK regardless of benefits because they think the streets are paved with gold and, to put simply, the opportunities of getting (whether receiving or earning) money here are simply FAR greater than in their own country.
Delaying benefits for EU immigrants will not stop them flocking here- only abolishing the EU freedom of movement will.
Immigrants will strive towards El'dorado/UK regardless of benefits because they think the streets are paved with gold and, to put simply, the opportunities of getting (whether receiving or earning) money here are simply FAR greater than in their own country.
Delaying benefits for EU immigrants will not stop them flocking here- only abolishing the EU freedom of movement will.
(edited 8 years ago)
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Agree with the OP, David Cameron is using immigrant benefits as a red herring so when he gets some sort of deal on them he can say it is a great victory when really it is a minor issue and the major issues he has completely ignored e.g. full immigration control, control of UK fishing waters, lower EU budget, signing our own trade deals etc
I agree, but obviously, david cameron was never planning on getting substantial reforms. he wanted to achieve as little as he could and then call it a "re-negotiation", because he's a europhile. literally, the UK could achieve whatever it asked for, because if it didn't get it, the UK would leave the EU and no more of their citizens could immigrate here or claim more benefits here (which is the synthetic 'issue' that the EU currently has regarding his benefits changes for EU citizens). this is the thing I don't understand - if david cameron really does want to get immigration down to the 10s of thousands, why doesn't he ask to repeal the freedom of movement principle? he can achieve it, because if the UK left the EU, the entire EU project would look like the berlin wall in 1989.
(edited 8 years ago)
i have wondered this about the anti immigration brigade. Do you not just want them here or is it more about the benefits, jobs, etc.
Original post by Bill_Gates
i have wondered this about the anti immigration brigade. Do you not just want them here or is it more about the benefits, jobs, etc.
Both:
-I do not want immigrants coming here who are not from Western-cultured countries.
-I do not want low-skilled immigrants who are as beneficial as a slap in the face. We should only admit high-skilled/useful immigrants. You seem to be forgetting, every single person we admit is extra demand on housing, transport etc. What is the point allowing people to come here who are then taking the low-skilled jobs which British workers could be doing (and thereby lowering the welfare bill)?
Original post by Bill_Gates
i have wondered this about the anti immigration brigade. Do you not just want them here or is it more about the benefits, jobs, etc.
Corporations support it (cheap labour), universities support it (more international students), politicians support it (more BME votes, particularly for Labour), charities and NGOs support it (more funding)...is this alone not enough of a reason to oppose it?
There's an much higher likelihood on the part of migrant groups to base their entire identify around their religion or their ethnicity. We advocate the arbitrariness of such identities, they revel in them. How do you align such disparate views?
Migrant groups don't want to integrate, they want to congregate together - they want to follow their own culture, even when it conflicts with the culture of the host nation. The same pattern is replicated all over the western world, particularly in Swedish towns and cities (with the highest proportion of migration, i.e., Malmo).
I don't give a ****. I mean, I'm the most peaceable guy on earth when diversity and tolerance isn't being forced upon me, or where I'm not forced to denounce my own ethnicity, my own sexuality, my own gender and my own national identity just to have what many progressives deem a 'valid viewpoint.' Black, white, Asian, female, male, Hindi, Sikh, Christian...I don't give a ****. I only start giving a **** when:
1. These groups are afforded preferential treatment.
2. When people start protecting these groups to derive moral superiority and self-righteousness from their actions, irrespective of what's placed in-front of them.
3. When people start prioritising arbitrary identities ahead of individual liberty.
4. When people enforce social policy and afford preferential treatment for certain groups based upon perceived discrimination.
5. When these imagined groups and identities begin peddling hate (or what would, in ANY context involving a white, middle-class, heterosexual male, be deemed the definition of prejudice).
Eastern European nations should never have been admitted to the EU. The Eastern block is a beggar looking for a handout
Original post by EccentricDiamond
Eastern European nations should never have been admitted to the EU. The Eastern block is a beggar looking for a handout
I think it's basic economics/rational choice theory to recognise the obvious fact that if you give certain people massive incentives, then they will follow those incentives. so, if you have a nation of very poor people being given the chance to go to another country (of which many of them speak the language) where they'll get paid hugely more than otherwise in their homelands, they *will* come. not all of them, obviously, but a great deal of them will. it's like saying that a donkey doesn't follow the carrot otherwise - human beings are simple to understand - we like $$$, so we find it, in other countries when we have the easy means.
also, I find it spineless that the prime ministers of poland and romania are kicking against the "renegotiation" of a 4 year waiting period for BENEFITS (not employment, housing, etc) for people that SHOULDN'TY HAVE COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE if they couldn't afford to live here. and if romanians and polish people have LEFT your country, mr ciolos and mrs szydło, they why should you give a damn about them when they left you guys behind in the dust? they turned their backs on you and you're DEFENDING them? only in eastern europe would this **** fly..."our countries are so **** that we're *encouraging* our people to leave"
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by mmm778899
Both:
-I do not want immigrants coming here who are not from Western-cultured countries.
-I do not want low-skilled immigrants who are as beneficial as a slap in the face. We should only admit high-skilled/useful immigrants. You seem to be forgetting, every single person we admit is extra demand on housing, transport etc. What is the point allowing people to come here who are then taking the low-skilled jobs which British workers could be doing (and thereby lowering the welfare bill)?
-I do not want immigrants coming here who are not from Western-cultured countries.
-I do not want low-skilled immigrants who are as beneficial as a slap in the face. We should only admit high-skilled/useful immigrants. You seem to be forgetting, every single person we admit is extra demand on housing, transport etc. What is the point allowing people to come here who are then taking the low-skilled jobs which British workers could be doing (and thereby lowering the welfare bill)?
As an immigrant myself, I agree.
Original post by EccentricDiamond
Eastern European nations should never have been admitted to the EU. The Eastern block is a beggar looking for a handout
It depends, Czech Republic or Slovenia are doing good.
Original post by Josb
It depends, Czech Republic or Slovenia are doing good.
Both countries are nothing compared to the powerhouse that is western European
Original post by Josb
It depends, Czech Republic or Slovenia are doing good.
Something I can be proud of for once:
Since the beginning of the transition to a primarily market-based economy, which took place in the early 90’s, Poland has achieved a "very high" ranking in terms of human development,[19] as well as gradually improving economic freedom.[20] Poland is a democratic country with an advanced high-income economy,[21] a high quality of life and a very high standard of living.[22][23] Poland is the sixth largest economy in the European Union and among the fastest rising economic states in the world. The country is the sole member nation of the European Union to have escaped a decline in GDP and in recent years was able to create probably the most varied GDP growth in its history.[24] Furthermore, according to the Global Peace Index for 2014, Poland is one of the safest countries in the world to live in.[25]
Spoiler
Original post by Mayhem™
Something I can be proud of for once:
Since the beginning of the transition to a primarily market-based economy, which took place in the early 90’s, Poland has achieved a "very high" ranking in terms of human development,[19] as well as gradually improving economic freedom.[20] Poland is a democratic country with an advanced high-income economy,[21] a high quality of life and a very high standard of living.[22][23] Poland is the sixth largest economy in the European Union and among the fastest rising economic states in the world. The country is the sole member nation of the European Union to have escaped a decline in GDP and in recent years was able to create probably the most varied GDP growth in its history.[24] Furthermore, according to the Global Peace Index for 2014, Poland is one of the safest countries in the world to live in.[25]
Since the beginning of the transition to a primarily market-based economy, which took place in the early 90’s, Poland has achieved a "very high" ranking in terms of human development,[19] as well as gradually improving economic freedom.[20] Poland is a democratic country with an advanced high-income economy,[21] a high quality of life and a very high standard of living.[22][23] Poland is the sixth largest economy in the European Union and among the fastest rising economic states in the world. The country is the sole member nation of the European Union to have escaped a decline in GDP and in recent years was able to create probably the most varied GDP growth in its history.[24] Furthermore, according to the Global Peace Index for 2014, Poland is one of the safest countries in the world to live in.[25]
Spoiler
And still over one million poles came to the UK and continue to do so
I don't even know what Cameron is trying to negotiate. Stopping benefits to immigrants for four years? Is that it? Is this the radical change he's looking for? It's a joke. Nothing about the erosion of sovereignty, legislation from Brussels, rebates, etc?
Maybe he should have surveyed the public to ask them what their true gripes with the EU are. But of course, it's a bogus negotiation anyway. Cameron's wasting his time as well as everybody elses as he's going to campaign hard to stay in the EU anyway.
Maybe he should have surveyed the public to ask them what their true gripes with the EU are. But of course, it's a bogus negotiation anyway. Cameron's wasting his time as well as everybody elses as he's going to campaign hard to stay in the EU anyway.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by mmm778899
Both:
-I do not want immigrants coming here who are not from Western-cultured countries.
-I do not want low-skilled immigrants who are as beneficial as a slap in the face. We should only admit high-skilled/useful immigrants. You seem to be forgetting, every single person we admit is extra demand on housing, transport etc. What is the point allowing people to come here who are then taking the low-skilled jobs which British workers could be doing (and thereby lowering the welfare bill)?
-I do not want immigrants coming here who are not from Western-cultured countries.
-I do not want low-skilled immigrants who are as beneficial as a slap in the face. We should only admit high-skilled/useful immigrants. You seem to be forgetting, every single person we admit is extra demand on housing, transport etc. What is the point allowing people to come here who are then taking the low-skilled jobs which British workers could be doing (and thereby lowering the welfare bill)?
Original post by TheCitizenAct
Corporations support it (cheap labour), universities support it (more international students), politicians support it (more BME votes, particularly for Labour), charities and NGOs support it (more funding)...is this alone not enough of a reason to oppose it?
There's an much higher likelihood on the part of migrant groups to base their entire identify around their religion or their ethnicity. We advocate the arbitrariness of such identities, they revel in them. How do you align such disparate views?
Migrant groups don't want to integrate, they want to congregate together - they want to follow their own culture, even when it conflicts with the culture of the host nation. The same pattern is replicated all over the western world, particularly in Swedish towns and cities (with the highest proportion of migration, i.e., Malmo).
I don't give a ****. I mean, I'm the most peaceable guy on earth when diversity and tolerance isn't being forced upon me, or where I'm not forced to denounce my own ethnicity, my own sexuality, my own gender and my own national identity just to have what many progressives deem a 'valid viewpoint.' Black, white, Asian, female, male, Hindi, Sikh, Christian...I don't give a ****. I only start giving a **** when:
1. These groups are afforded preferential treatment.
2. When people start protecting these groups to derive moral superiority and self-righteousness from their actions, irrespective of what's placed in-front of them.
3. When people start prioritising arbitrary identities ahead of individual liberty.
4. When people enforce social policy and afford preferential treatment for certain groups based upon perceived discrimination.
5. When these imagined groups and identities begin peddling hate (or what would, in ANY context involving a white, middle-class, heterosexual male, be deemed the definition of prejudice).
There's an much higher likelihood on the part of migrant groups to base their entire identify around their religion or their ethnicity. We advocate the arbitrariness of such identities, they revel in them. How do you align such disparate views?
Migrant groups don't want to integrate, they want to congregate together - they want to follow their own culture, even when it conflicts with the culture of the host nation. The same pattern is replicated all over the western world, particularly in Swedish towns and cities (with the highest proportion of migration, i.e., Malmo).
I don't give a ****. I mean, I'm the most peaceable guy on earth when diversity and tolerance isn't being forced upon me, or where I'm not forced to denounce my own ethnicity, my own sexuality, my own gender and my own national identity just to have what many progressives deem a 'valid viewpoint.' Black, white, Asian, female, male, Hindi, Sikh, Christian...I don't give a ****. I only start giving a **** when:
1. These groups are afforded preferential treatment.
2. When people start protecting these groups to derive moral superiority and self-righteousness from their actions, irrespective of what's placed in-front of them.
3. When people start prioritising arbitrary identities ahead of individual liberty.
4. When people enforce social policy and afford preferential treatment for certain groups based upon perceived discrimination.
5. When these imagined groups and identities begin peddling hate (or what would, in ANY context involving a white, middle-class, heterosexual male, be deemed the definition of prejudice).
Well i support immigration purely on the basis of:
1. Free markets and globalisation
2. I want the best people for the job
3. Peace and long term prosperity.
Enjoy!
I don't support only exclusive immigration from Europe like we are getting now since we're only getting largely low skilled workers and would prefer it to be opened up to future powers like India, China for skilled wealthy workers (that's if they want to come their preferred destination now is USA and Canada, Singapore etc).
Original post by RiahDawson
Go kill yourself.
Immigrants are not the problem. Most actually work and pay taxes. You cant ruin the freedom of movement.
Immigrants are not the problem. Most actually work and pay taxes. You cant ruin the freedom of movement.
Are you aware you haven't actually provided any logical response, just a knee-jerk reaction?
Original post by Bill_Gates
Well i support immigration purely on the basis of:
1. Free markets and globalisation
2. I want the best people for the job
3. Peace and long term prosperity.
Enjoy!
I don't support only exclusive immigration from Europe like we are getting now since we're only getting largely low skilled workers and would prefer it to be opened up to future powers like India, China for skilled wealthy workers (that's if they want to come their preferred destination now is USA and Canada, Singapore etc).
1. Free markets and globalisation
2. I want the best people for the job
3. Peace and long term prosperity.
Enjoy!
I don't support only exclusive immigration from Europe like we are getting now since we're only getting largely low skilled workers and would prefer it to be opened up to future powers like India, China for skilled wealthy workers (that's if they want to come their preferred destination now is USA and Canada, Singapore etc).
So why don't you just support only high-skilled immigration?
Original post by mmm778899
So why don't you just support only high-skilled immigration?
i do but i don't think Britain can attract enough high skilled any more. In terms of living standards they have better options now, they didn't say 10-20 years ago.
Hence why i think they're letting in all these low skilled, low net worth Europeans who can barely add 2+2. It's the best we can get. Plus they're white so you can't tell as easily that they're foreign. So that keeps Tory votes safe LOL
Original post by EccentricDiamond
And still over one million poles came to the UK and continue to do so
It's much easier to succeed here, I came in being an average student in Poland to a top of the class kid in England.
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