Japanese Society

SiaSiaSia

こんにちは

こんばんは、SiaSiaSiaさん。お元気ですか？

今日、私にrepをくれたことが分かりました。それに私の日本語についていいメッセージがありました。
Today, I found out I had been given rep. There was also a nice message concerning my Japanese.

そんなすてきなメッセージを送信したので、とてもうれしいです。
Because they sent such a wonderful message, I was so happy/pleased.

今、私はすばらしいです！
Now, I feel absolutely great.

見知らぬ人、ありがとうございます。
Thank you very much, (kind!) Stranger.

Also, I had my first unrehearsed conversation in Japanese today.
Hurrah! It wasn't too bad. Of course, the person spoke to me in fairly easy Japanese though.
It was interesting and gave me a boost in confidence!!

Same with the message, it practically brought a tear to my eye.
I don't know why, but I truly think I'm struggling with my Japanese. So, I feel failure.
But, I make mistakes and learn from them. Best thing for me.

I was wondering how other people learnt? I'm thinking of going through one of my books.
Learn to speak about tourist-type things, etc. As, I don't know how much I can say on such things.

Reply 582

Jazmine

見知らぬ人、ありがとうございます。
Thank you very much, (kind!) Stranger.

I love that word. Its one of those words that derives from the classical language. The ぬ ending is sort of a negative completion. You find those endings in tons of idiomatic expressions. (I.e. 見ぬが花...)

Same with the message, it practically brought a tear to my eye.
I don't know why, but I truly think I'm struggling with my Japanese. So, I feel failure.
But, I make mistakes and learn from them. Best thing for me.

My Japanese is ****. When I bother to speak to my g/f I forget tons of easy words. I also speak too much in colloquial style as well. Ultimately my vocab is just gash... I think i spend too much time on grammar. Pointless grammar too. Might just cram vocab during this summer break.

Reply 583

Speaking of idioms, my favourite is: 猫に小判. I want to use it in English, ha ha,
better than casting "pearls before swine" (which I had never heard of before actually).

At least you can occassionally speak to your girlfriend, which must be a little bit helpful at least?
Heh, I need to improve on vocab. too, as well as grammar in fact. I tried learning it all, but
it just never stuck in. I gave up after a short while and just started speaking to people. So, what I
learn is from other people - memorising grammatical structures, etc - and I use a dictionary all the time.
So, I learn new words through others or by having to find out what they are so I can reply =P

Reply 584

Jazmine

Speaking of idioms, my favourite is: 猫に小判. I want to use it in English, ha ha,
better than casting "pearls before swine" (which I had never heard of before actually).

A koban was former coin used in feudal Japan that was shaped like an oval. Of course this ties in with the cat when you see this;

Literally the idiom is 'to put a koban in front of a cat'. Not quite the pearls in front of a swine. :smile:

At least you can occassionally speak to your girlfriend, which must be a little bit helpful at least?
Heh, I need to improve on vocab. too, as well as grammar in fact. I tried learning it all, but
it just never stuck in. I gave up after a short while and just started speaking to people. So, what I
learn is from other people - memorising grammatical structures, etc - and I use a dictionary all the time.
So, I learn new words through others or by having to find out what they are so I can reply =P

She's in Japan now so... :laugh:

My grammar is horribly complex at the minute. I think I'm trying to learn constructions that a native speaker hardly uses in daily life. One thing that helps is to watch Japanese TV and programmes a lot. I get a lot of new vocab this way, as well as reinforcing my old vocab. Its mostly owarai programmes though. :hmmm:

Reply 585

Heh, I know - s'why I prefer the Japanese idiom! But the English equivalent of 猫に小判 is "Pearls Before Swine".

猫に小判 neko ni koban
* Literally: gold coins to a cat.
* Meaning: Giving a gift to someone who can't appreciate it; A useless gesture; "Pearls before swine."
* Background: According to superstition, cats love round, shiny objects like coins even though they're ignorant of their true use,
so this proverb also carries the connotation of an objective pursued without completely comprehending it.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Japanese_proverbs

Ha ha, I watch children's shows. Anpanman, Doraemon, Mainichi Kaasan, Sazae-san, I use KeyHoleTV, at 11pm I watch their kids shows if
I can, You Gotta Quintet and others. This is because the language is easier for me to understand as opposed to adult shows. My Japanese
is comparable to a two year old, I'm sure. So, suits me =D Learn a lot from it surprisingly.

Sometimes, I cannot understand their pronounciations (doesn't help with characters like Baikinman having a funny voice), so I watch
them over and over again, eventually.. I somehow start to understand everything - at least in terms of identifying the syllables.

But I recommend it for beginners - I really do, especially if the programmes teach kids stuff. I love one episode I have of Anpanman.
Teaches you phrases, parts of the face, hiragana and onomatopoeia... Okay, so I knew all of the contents before,
but it's sweet and drums into my head. Especially their songs. "あ あ あ あ あいうえお　うたえば　たのしい　あいうえおー（あいうえおー）"
Or just songs I hear anyways, "サカナ　サカナ　サカナ　サカナを食べると、アタマ　アタマ　アタマ　アタマが良くなる". Makes me want to eat fish.

It's also good to note (for anyone reading this): Do not use these shows as a complete way to study.
Always check! You want to know if it's childish language, rude/informal language, etc.

I watch other things though, Fuji TV a lot. Ha ha, some shows are very entertaining. Like クイズ!ヘキサゴン! (Quiz! Hexagon) or
Run for Money 逃走中 (WHICH I LOVE!! Oh my gosh, so good.. Gripping). I was gonna get it on DVD, but it's so darn expensive. Luckily,
YouTube has a few, http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=49C938BDD00AE9F0&search_query=run+for+money

And I watch some of Vermillion Pleasure Night (The Fuccons and basically any of their mannequin or Cathy sketches).

Love Fuccons, ha ha. But I have no idea why. Sorry for rambling though!!

Reply 586

AfroNathan

I do love the culture of Japan, I am applying to study Japanese at University then to emigrate to Japan

Reply 587

^^ What do you plan to do in Japan? Teach?

Reply 588

Excalibur

15

Incidentally, you can get 'pearls before swine' in Japanese as well - 豚に真珠。

Reply 589

I know, but it's just not as great as 猫に小判, I feel. Heh

My friend gave me a small list of similar idioms:

豚に真珠　Pearls before swine
馬の耳に念仏 A prayer to Amida before horse ear (in one ear and out the other)
馬耳東風 馬耳horse ear 東風 Wind of spring coming from the east (like talking to a brick wall)
犬に論語　The analects of Confucius before dog (like "pearls before swine" )

Hi Guys.

Bonjour!

Someone asked me a question today.
"最近お茶のコマーシャルでイギリス人の女性と真田広之が共演しているものがありますが、そこでイギリス人の女性が「にごり」のことを「にこり」と言ったり、「あじ」を「あし」と言ってしまう場面がありました。イギリス人の方は「ご」の音と「じ」の音を発音しにくいのでしょうか？"

I looked up the advert...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyfZQ57vi0s - Ha ha.. I like it.

Anyways, I'm not so knowledgeable as to know the answer to this question. I have difficulties with pronounciation anyways!
I cannot say whether or not people have difficulty with ご and じ generally. (For me, G- sounds, e.g. ご、が, etc, don't sound clear).
So, if there's someone with more experience who can help me give a good answer to this person, I would appreciate it! Thanks, x

Reply 593

I always think my 'r' sounds are not completely natural. Obviously in Japanese the 'r' sound is a bit like a cross between an 'l' and an 'r'...

I have no problem differentiating between go and ko sounds. I mean, generally speaking I can understand the differences between voiced and voiceless constants. Perhaps because I've studied Russian... :dontknow:

Reply 594

Just to add to the above pronunciation debate. I think one thing that many non natives have trouble with (both English and Japanese) is not so much the pronunciation of words but the way you pronounce sentences. Sometimes, people tend to speak a Japanese sentence in all one go, thinking that lack of stress means a complete lack of stress and intonation on anything.

If you listen to Japanese carefully, you'll here a ton of stress and intonation placed on various parts of a sentence. For instance, when you speak Japanese you tend to leave a little pause after a particle (especially after a topic particle.) That advert you posted was pretty indicative, as the girl in question speaks Japanese as you would an English sentence, by jumbling up all the words together in a sentence. Nikori ni aru for example would have distinctive little stops between it, whereas in English something like that would be said as one non-stop sentence that follows on from one word to the next. Its hard to explain, but you have to listen very closely to get it.

When I hear Japanese people speaking in English (g/f is a prime example) they speak it very punctuated rather than it flowing along. In short, they speak English the same way we attempt to speak Japanese.

Reply 595

diskohuelga

10

So, I've been wondering, what was you guys' technique when you all studied kanji? I've been stuck for ages now, due to exams and a idgaf attitude. But I wanna start again since I've got so much time on my hands. I use RTK by Heisig and it's pretty good but kinda slow and forgetable, and I can only remember a few hundred kanji out of the 400 I knew when I started 10 months ago...

Reply 596

Thanks guy_incognito! Yeah, I feel as if K is stronger than G. Can't say I recall getting them mixed up. On the advert, he CLEARLY was not saying KO. But the GO there isn't clear to me, I would probably misinterpret it as にのり if anything.

I agree about the way in which people speak. I've asked for a lot of help on my intonation. One word I can't do is 哲学 (てつがく ), stress on the つ but not the others. I can't help but put stress on the が instead.

Diskohuelga:
What I do is keep active! Read and type a lot. I have learnt so many kanji this way. I am rubbish at handwriting them (can't remember strokes and my handwriting in both English and Japanese looks very bad anyways), but I find that by seeing these kanji frequently - and having to use them - helps me to remember them at least by how they look. From experience, you start to remember them in more detail and it's easier when you review them. Or, well, that's worked in my experience anyways.

I never remember kanji by just looking at them. I have to apply. Took me ages to learn 高 and 校, but through talking about 高校 (こうこう ), it became easier to recall. Of course, it doesn't help with my stroke order and I feel as if I'm in the same pickle as you regarding having troubles remembering stuff.

Reply 597

diskohuelga

So, I've been wondering, what was you guys' technique when you all studied kanji? I've been stuck for ages now, due to exams and a idgaf attitude. But I wanna start again since I've got so much time on my hands. I use RTK by Heisig and it's pretty good but kinda slow and forgetable, and I can only remember a few hundred kanji out of the 400 I knew when I started 10 months ago...

I'm at the stage where kanji don't concern me. I was sent an electronic exam from my host university next year and struggled to know the words because they were not in kanji. Its just so fundamental in Japanese now. I'm used to reading stuff with tons of kanji. I've absorbed around the 1000+ mark, but even now I forget some of the first year stuff like 温暖化. I guess, I really need to go back and re-learn everything even basic kanji. The really basic kanji have lots of readings that I nearly always forget (like 下 and 上.) Anyhoo, I know kanji like 奴隷 and 犠牲 which are hardly used in everyday Japanese, but you gotta know them I guess.

I mostly break the kanji down into fundamental radicals and then piece it together. For example I would break down something like 薄い into the grass at the top, then the water at the side, then the little box and then the stroke underneath which is 'sun' - meaning a little something.

I mostly visual kanji through bushi and its placement.

As for the readings, I just drill them into my head daily. It helps to know a word which you can like back into the kanji reading for instance if you know the word for 'season' in Japanese you can almost certainly know the onyomi reading for this kanji 節.

Its a long process though. The obscure readings I know for one kanji are just drilled in through a constant process of daily revision. Its a real pain in the arse when you start learning really complex kanji though - at first it was hard, but now they tend to come more easily I guess. Its harder not being in Japan and seeing them on a daily basis though.

Reply 598

Jazmine

Thanks guy_incognito! Yeah, I feel as if K is stronger than G. Can't say I recall getting them mixed up. On the advert, he CLEARLY was not saying KO. But the GO there isn't clear to me, I would probably misinterpret it as にのり if anything.

Nikori means smile. Nigori is the little dots you put over hiragana to make them voiced. It also means when you say something that is inaudible or can't be understood because it seems ambiguous or incongruous. 彼はにごりのことを言った. In the words of Rainer Wolfcastle: That's the joke!

Nigori also literally means murky or impure. (i.e. にごり水..)

I agree about the way in which people speak. I've asked for a lot of help on my intonation. One word I can't do is 哲学 (てつがく ), stress on the つ but not the others. I can't help but put stress on the が instead.

つ seems to be a hard one to pronounce. Try pronouncing 'operating room' in Japanese though. Here's a hint if you don't know the word. 手術室 (しゅじゅつしつ.) - hahaha.

I never remember kanji by just looking at them. I have to apply. Took me ages to learn 高 and 校, but through talking about 高校 (こうこう ), it became easier to recall. Of course, it doesn't help with my stroke order and I feel as if I'm in the same pickle as you regarding having troubles remembering stuff.

In basic terms, 校 is just a tree next to a father under a roof. :p:

Think of your dad dropping you off at school and then going back to his home which is near a tree. hell, I always remember 演 as performing in a theater which is under a roof and next to some water. RE: stroke order. Some kanji have really daft stroke orders and its much easier to write them a certain way rather than the correct way. I would imagine its the same for the Japanese. I mean I always write な by doing the little one stroke bit last rather than third (if you know what I mean.)

You mostly write kanji from left to right and from up to bottom. So if you break the kanji down you draw the tree first and then the roof and then the dad.

Reply 599